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-   -   Is the Heavy LAW a TOW Missile? (http://forums.sjgames.com/showthread.php?t=161150)

Blue Ghost 12-19-2018 04:36 PM

Is the Heavy LAW a TOW Missile?
 
I'm going through CW Tanks, and am curious about the Heavy LAW and Bazookas. Are either of the considered to be a TOW or Drago missile?

If not, were any such devices proposed?

owenmp 12-20-2018 04:15 AM

Re: Is the Heavy LAW a TOW Missile?
 
Look at the Missile Launcher (ML) and Heavy Missile Launcher (HML) in UACFH for two types of high-powered, military-style missiles.

swordtart 12-20-2018 06:06 AM

Re: Is the Heavy LAW a TOW Missile?
 
No CW weapon is a real one (look at the effective ranges for a start).

Any imagery is purely fluff and any description other than the stat lines are entirely non-binding.

Blue Ghost 12-20-2018 07:02 AM

Re: Is the Heavy LAW a TOW Missile?
 
Thanks for the replies. I was curious why I wasn't seeing long range stuff like a TOW, Dragon (wire guided I think), or even a Javelin. Very interesting.

Thanks again.

helbent4 12-25-2018 01:18 AM

Re: Is the Heavy LAW a TOW Missile?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Blue Ghost (Post 2229695)
I'm going through CW Tanks, and am curious about the Heavy LAW and Bazookas. Are either of the considered to be a TOW or Drago missile?

If not, were any such devices proposed?

The aspect of missiles has been covered. Although man-portable missiles seem to be absent from CW a Dragon missile launcher resembles the Wire-Guided missile from Uncle Albert's 2035 catalogue although it probably could also pass for an ERYX. The same system with IR seeking would resemble the Javelin. I would say the Missile Launcher (with wire-guidance) from Tanks is pretty much like the TOW II or MILAN ATGM systems; the same launcher with Laser guidance is like a Hellfire. Heavy LAWs might be considered equivalent to the AT-4/M136, the "Bazooka" is probably much like a Carl Gustav. Etc.

Bear in mind that unless you are running a Crossbows and Chassis game weapons like TOW IIs, M72 LAWs and so on (in other words what we consider current and past weapon systems) would very much be antiques or obsolete if they were still produced. (hich is actually pretty likely). They would no longer be considered military-grade weapons but fit only for sale on the civilian market!

In the world of CW, there is much latitude. As mentioned flavour text and images can be confusing or flat-out wrong and this may be because there is simply fewer or no "job-killing" regulations on truth in advertising. For example the UA 2035 catalogue states in a couple of ads that the MG is ".50 cal." which is hard to credit as these weapons seem more like 5.56mm or maybe 7.62mm MGs. For this I assume that the ".50 cal." round in question is not the full-powered 12.7x99mm round used in the M2HB but a much- shortened cartridge like the .50 Action Express (developed for the Desert Eagle) which is 12.7x33mm. Most of the weapons in sources like Uncle Albert's catalogues are likely "nerfed" for civilian sale. Military-grade weapons tend to be much more effective and longer-ranged.

One last comment as to why CW doesn't seem to have many direct-real world weapon analogues is that on one hand the game started out abstract and simple without much an eye towards accurate weapon modeling. And in-world reasons might include changes in doctrine and training over the next few decades. Large-scale warfare, particularly tank warfare, is extremely rare and limited. Therefore there is less emphasis on long-range anti-tank weapons. Due to the slow recovery of governmental collapse and tight budgets most combat units are militia/reservists and tend to be small, fast vehicles along the lines of up-gunned and up-armoured autoduelists. Your chance of seeing a real live tank on the battlefield is astonishingly small. A little far-fetched, perhaps, but this is Car Wars and that's how people think in a post-apocalyptic future where the right of way goes to the biggest guns!

Thanks,

Tony

43Supporter 12-25-2018 11:34 AM

Re: Is the Heavy LAW a TOW Missile?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by helbent4 (Post 2230826)
In the world of CW, there is much latitude. As mentioned flavour text and images can be confusing or flat-out wrong and this may be because there is simply fewer or no "job-killing" regulations on truth in advertising. For example the UA 2035 catalogue states in a couple of ads that the MG is ".50 cal." which is hard to credit as these weapons seem more like 5.56mm or maybe 7.62mm MGs. For this I assume that the ".50 cal." round in question is not the full-powered 12.7x99mm round used in the M2HB but a much- shortened cartridge like the .50 Action Express (developed for the Desert Eagle) which is 12.7x33mm. Most of the weapons in sources like Uncle Albert's catalogues are likely "nerfed" for civilian sale. Military-grade weapons tend to be much more effective and longer-ranged.

For my part: Before _CW Tanks_ came along, my assumption for weapons was:

-- Area-Effect Weapons are 5mm/d6-damage
-- Burst-Effect Weapons are 10mm/d6-damage
-- "Civilian weapons are depowered", as you suggest.

Blue Ghost 12-25-2018 11:07 PM

Re: Is the Heavy LAW a TOW Missile?
 
A friend of mine was a tanker, and talked a lot about armor and anti-armor weapons. Where we played Star Fleet Battles and Traveller on occasion, we never did any Car Wars. But, from talking to him, I was under the impression that there really weren't any good CW anti-armor weapons by the way he talked about tanks.

It's why I asked the question, because talking with him it strikes me that there really is no CW vehicle that can withstand any pure military anti-armor weapon. Some weapons, like the LAW, baffle me, because their application was so narrow, and yet in the CW-verse, depending on your group, are used. And if the LAW is said to do so many dice of damage (I'm too lazy to open the PDF just now), then what kind of damage can Javelin, TOW or Dragon, or whatever weapon, deliver?

The sense is that those weapons are, as advertised, one shot one kill weapons against robust armored targets. And if they can take out an M1, then the dice delivered in the CW verse must be so robust to the point of not needing any roles.

I ask because I've got a "secret project" going on … it's sorta kinda just after the C&C era, but involves C&C types squaring off with regular duelists. There may be anti-armor weapons available, but I'm trying to gauge that based on what I come up with.

Like I was telling 43supporter in some PMs, when I first cracked the CW rules way back in 80 or thereabouts, my first thought was "I wonder if they have tanks in here". And tanks would come nearly a decade later after waiting for them (Dragon 117 and the Dempsey not withstanding). Even so, I'm thankful for the answers here, and I'm going to try and slog on with this project in conjunction with losing weight.

Thanks for the feedback. It helps much.

43Supporter 12-26-2018 01:58 PM

Re: Is the Heavy LAW a TOW Missile?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Blue Ghost (Post 2231008)
But, from talking to him, I was under the impression that there really weren't any good CW anti-armor weapons by the way he talked about tanks.

The problem here is the way Armor works -- straight-ablative means one has to repeatedly bludgeon a target with hits before doing internal damage (how many hits varies with the amount of armor).

By comparison: GW's long-defunct car-combat game _Dark Future_ had armor rules which worked a little more like Metal Armor: One had an Armor Value one needed to exceed in order to do internal damage (weapons inflicted "1d6, plus a damage modifier"); afterward, the armor was still there. It was therefore possible to hit a target with a bunch of "light" weapons, and accomplish nothing; then hit it with One Big Rocket, and turn the crew to tapioca -- the vaunted "one shot, one kill".

If _CW_ had started with Metal-style Armor rules, one wonders how this discussion would be playing out. :)

Blue Ghost 12-26-2018 07:01 PM

Re: Is the Heavy LAW a TOW Missile?
 
It is kind of interesting. I remember ripping through the rules, sort of scratching my head on the plastic armor and electric power plants, but I guess my thinking was that in some expansion pack or "next edition" there would be gas engines, metal plating, and maybe a tank or two. Nearly ten years later oh well. I mean I'm not bitter about it or anything, it's just that Car Wars was presented as a pretty rich alternate future scifi-ish type of game, and so for my friends and I, we had hopes that other stuff would be published.

And other stuff was, it just wasn't tanks and gas engines. Oh well.

kjamma4 12-27-2018 07:49 AM

Re: Is the Heavy LAW a TOW Missile?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Blue Ghost (Post 2231258)
It is kind of interesting. I remember ripping through the rules, sort of scratching my head on the plastic armor and electric power plants, but I guess my thinking was that in some expansion pack or "next edition" there would be gas engines, metal plating, and maybe a tank or two. Nearly ten years later oh well. I mean I'm not bitter about it or anything, it's just that Car Wars was presented as a pretty rich alternate future scifi-ish type of game, and so for my friends and I, we had hopes that other stuff would be published.

And other stuff was, it just wasn't tanks and gas engines. Oh well.

You have to go farther back in time to get the rules for tanks and gas engines - Fifth Edition did not even have rules for designing cars.

http://www.warehouse23.com/products/car-wars-tanks

http://www.warehouse23.com/products/dueltrack

http://www.warehouse23.com/products/car-wars-compendium


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