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-   -   thrown weapons and facing (http://forums.sjgames.com/showthread.php?t=170678)

ecz 10-15-2020 02:50 AM

thrown weapons and facing
 
well, apologies it has been already asked.

it seems that rules specify that facing does not matter for missile attacks, while remain silent about TW.

does this implies that facing for TW counts and an attacker from rear gets the +4 AdjDX ?

phiwum 10-15-2020 06:40 AM

Re: thrown weapons and facing
 
I'm newer than most posters here, but I think there are two schools of thought.

(1) There are a few areas where the rules use the word "missile weapons" when the reasonable interpretation ought to be "missile or thrown weapons", i.e., ranged weapons. I think most people regard facing rules to be one of those areas.

(2) You could make a case that a thrown weapon is slower, so a person facing the thrower could duck or dodge (not in the technical use of the word in ITL). I leaned to that interpretation as I read the rules, but then there should be a difference in ability to duck or dodge if engaged or not.

In the interest of simplicity and figgering others have thought more about this question than I have, I've decided to go with (1). Facing plays no role.

Shostak 10-15-2020 07:03 AM

Re: thrown weapons and facing
 
Thrown weapons benefit from facing modifiers while missile weapons do not, though I really can't explain the the designer's rationale behind that feature, especially considering that thrown spells do not get this benefit. That said, this distinction between missile and thrown weapons does make for interesting (fun) decisions on the battlefield, even though it might not feel entirely realistic.

phiwum 10-15-2020 08:39 AM

Re: thrown weapons and facing
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Shostak (Post 2348529)
Thrown weapons benefit from facing modifiers while missile weapons do not, though I really can't explain the the designer's rationale behind that feature, especially considering that thrown spells do not get this benefit. That said, this distinction between missile and thrown weapons does make for interesting (fun) decisions on the battlefield, even though it might not feel entirely realistic.

Re-reading the text, I think that the rule is less ambiguous than I thought. On ITL 106, it says (emphasis added):
Quote:

A physical attack made from an enemy's side hex adds +2 to the attacker's DX. A physical attack made from an enemy's rear hex adds +4.
Seems to me a character two hexes away throwing a weapon is an attack made from two hexes away, not an attack made from a side or rear hex, so no bonus. It also seems to me that since a thrown weapon attack is a melee attack (whether engaged or not), it can be made from one hex away and facing would give a bonus in the case that the thrower is adjacent to the target.

This seems to be the literal reading of the rule. Whether it's also the intended reading is a little unclear to me. It gives a facing bonus iff the thrower is adjacent to the target, which is a little weird.

Please correct me if I'm missing something. The most unclear part of my interpretation is whether a thrown weapon is an attack from an adjacent hex when the thrower is non-adjacent.

larsdangly 10-15-2020 09:06 AM

Re: thrown weapons and facing
 
I agree with this interpretation; the text clearly states that the bonus goes to an attack launched from a specific adjacent hex.

Skarg 10-15-2020 09:22 AM

Re: thrown weapons and facing
 
Yeah, there is no definition of Side Hex or Rear Hex other than the adjacent hexes. And there would need to be a definition and/or diagram to even know which more distant attacking hexes are at the side or rear of a target. Without that, even if the intent were to give a +2 or +4, there would be nothing telling you which to apply in the hexes where it isn't obvious. The closest is the diagram for the forward 180 degree arc of hexes, but that is only for purposes of what you can see to make ranged attacks against.

ecz 10-15-2020 11:29 AM

Re: thrown weapons and facing
 
Rules says that a shield *not* ready (i.e. held on the back) protects from attacks coming from rear hex, (Melee, page 12). According the RAW, then, an arrow fired in the back from two, technically not "a rear hex" should bypass the shield for normal damage. That it's weird.

In my opionion rules are far from clear on this point, the omission for TW is fully unintentional.

BTW also the old Advanced Melee used the same wording.

Back in the eighties our playing group made no distinction. No DRM for MW nor TW

Shostak 10-15-2020 11:34 AM

Re: thrown weapons and facing
 
The case for Thrown Weapons benefitting from a facing bonus is based on, at minimum:
  1. The opening description of ITL's Thrown Weapon attacks' being treated "exactly like a regular attack."
  2. In the ITL Thrown Weapon description, no exception is made for the facing bonus as it is under Missile Weapons.
  3. Melee, p.10 reinforces this, with an exception noted for Missile Weapons, but not for Thrown.

I see no support for the interpretation that physical attacks must originate from an adjacent hex in order to benefit from facing modifiers. Since any physical attack (outside of HTH) must be made through a face of the target's hex, they can be understood to be coming from an adjacent hex. If the attack has to originate from an adjacent hex to get a facing bonus, Pole Weapon jabs from a distance, in addition to Thrown Weapon attacks, will not be eligible for the benefit.

hcobb 10-15-2020 11:40 AM

Re: thrown weapons and facing
 
ITL 106: "A physical attack made from an enemyís side hex adds +2 to the attackerís DX."

So you only get the facing bonus from an adjacent hex. It doesn't matter which hexes the dagger flies through from there.

phiwum 10-15-2020 12:09 PM

Re: thrown weapons and facing
 
Shostak certainly has a point that it would be weird if a spear jab doesn't get a side or rear bonus.


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