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-   -   ST fatigue and "reaction to injury" (http://forums.sjgames.com/showthread.php?t=160176)

ecz 10-13-2018 10:21 AM

ST fatigue and "reaction to injury"
 
About the ST cost for spells the manual says:

This is the number of ST
points a wizard expends casting the spell. This is a fatigue
loss to the wizard, rather than an injury, but it is treated just
as though the wizard had taken damage
, and marked against
his ST. A wizard who throws the Trip spell loses 2 ST, just
as though he had taken 2 points of damage


bold is mine.


Unless I missed something, per RAW a wizard spending 5 or more ST points in a spell suffers -2DX on the next turn and
if the same wizard spends 8+ points for casting a spell he falls down like he suffered a 8 points damage mace hit.

I have my different house rule from 1987, but as the rule appears crystal clear in the new ITL, I would know if you really consider fatigue equal to hits even for the "reaction to injury" rule.

larsdangly 10-13-2018 11:31 AM

Re: ST fatigue and "reaction to injury"
 
The RAW are clear. It is hard to say what the intent might have been, but the words are straightforward. I'm o.k. with it.

hcobb 10-13-2018 12:18 PM

Re: ST fatigue and "reaction to injury"
 
Advantage of using staff mana instead of a powerstone recharge?

ecz 10-13-2018 05:16 PM

Re: ST fatigue and "reaction to injury"
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by larsdangly (Post 2215920)
The RAW are clear. It is hard to say what the intent might have been, but the words are straightforward. I'm o.k. with it.

I agree the rule is clear.
I agree that it is hard read the true intent of the Designer.

I suspect that it has to do with the fact that original Melee and Wizard were two distinct designs and probably in the coordination between the two systems they missed something. The lack of interation between the Designer and the TfT community of players, for 35 years, left untouched this rule.

the way the new Scrying spell is described confirms that usually a wizard could even die if he spends more ST than he has. So If he could die, then he can certainly suffer a DX penalty for the fatigue or be knocked down for the tremendous effort when casting a complex spell. It makes sense and it's what appears for RAW

I never liked this rule because makes wizard too weak and has several side effects all negative:

-the wizard tend to use simple spells to avoid the DX penalty in battle. no creativity, no risks.

-ST battery and all the objects useful to save wizard's energy (the new advanced Staff for example) become too important

-any "great wizard" using an important (ST 10+) spell looks clumsy and ridicolous since he falls badly on the ground everytime he has success.

Imagine a "summon lesser demon" spell with the wizard falling down half shocked. In the first turn the wizard cannot act or make anything while the just called Demon looks its master with the face on the ground...
after 5 embarassing seconds the wizard - finally on his feet still polishing his fine vest - says:" good afternoom demon you have 1 minute to ... well no... 55 seconds to..."

I think this rule designs a peculiar type of wizard. A weak wizard that must economize every ST point and that literally must fight in the sand and in the mud as any other figure. He can die for a wasted ST point in a worthless spell

We are not ready for this today as we were not ready in 1987. We imagine wizards as a lordly and elite combatant leaving the dirty work to his first line fighters. If a wizard falls down or suffers a penalty on DX probably a disaster already happened.

hence We house ruled that any reaction to injury applies only to the physical damage, and created two different tracks for ST: hits and fatigue. Death is possible only if hits taken are > ST.

you never die for fatigue, you falls inconscious at worst.

larsdangly 10-13-2018 05:54 PM

Re: ST fatigue and "reaction to injury"
 
If you just play it RAW it is simply another problem that wizards need to plan around or accept the consequences. Between your staff and power stones, I think it should be possible for a seasoned and resourceful magician to figure out how to cast big spells without collapsing from the effort. I actually think it is kind of cool that wizards need to think about the consequences to themselves of successfully casting spells.

The Wyzard 10-13-2018 08:55 PM

Re: ST fatigue and "reaction to injury"
 
It's not that big a deal. You just sit in a chair while you cast.

Helborn 10-13-2018 11:07 PM

Re: ST fatigue and "reaction to injury"
 
I disagree. I think the rule is clear in specifying that it is "treated" as an injury, but is fatigue loss. No -2 DX. No falling down. Especially since a wizard cannot, except in a few specified spells, do more than knock himself unconscious. (Then he falls down)

Skarg 10-14-2018 12:19 AM

Re: ST fatigue and "reaction to injury"
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Helborn (Post 2216007)
I disagree. I think the rule is clear in specifying that it is "treated" as an injury, but is fatigue loss. No -2 DX. No falling down. Especially since a wizard cannot, except in a few specified spells, do more than knock himself unconscious. (Then he falls down)

I agree with you on this. I think this is just an over-literal misreading of that passage to extend to the injury effects.

The effects of injury section always seemed to us to be about injury, not spellcasting.

The part about spellcasting fatigue being "just as though the wizard had taken damage" (emphasis mine because it is pluperfect tense - as if it had happened in the past) we always read as just an attempt to explain that goes as far toward killing you or knocking you out as injury, but not that it also knocks you down or causes shock. No one in all the printed discussion about old TFT ever mentioned an issue with anyone casting a spell for 5 ST being at -2 DX, nor of wizards collapsing when casting 8 ST or more.

Skarg 10-14-2018 01:06 AM

Re: ST fatigue and "reaction to injury"
 
... Thinking about this again, I thought how funny it would be if spellcasting did give you shock and knock you down...

Counter-tactics could include:

* lying down before you cast powerful spells, to reduce the impact of falling down and to take cover.

* wizard's chairs, which could be wheeled and/or enchanted with various abilities, such as levitation. They're ominous because they suggest the wizard wants to be able to cast a spell for 8+ ST without having to worry about falling down...

* wizards tied into saddles of riding beasts, so they can cast 8+ ST spells without falling off their mounts...

platimus 10-14-2018 01:24 AM

Re: ST fatigue and "reaction to injury"
 
That is funny to think about. And I think you're right. I don't think it was intended for the effects of injury to be applied to fatigue. I think it was mentioned there as a reminder that damage + fatigue counts toward unconsciousness.

On the other hand, the DX penalties and falling down from strenuous spell-casting does have a certain logic to it. Most of the "wizards" I've seen on TV or in movies do seem to suffer these effects after major magical feats.

I won't be implementing it though.


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