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Gwythaint 09-01-2019 12:46 PM

Base and other property
 
3e supplements (VtM for example) had some converted advantages that represented property not accounted for in cost of living, like Occult Library, and Mansion. A long gone site, Otherworld.org had an "Advanced Goblins & Grottoes" setting with a variable cost Sanctuary advantage, that had enhancement based on size, secrecy, and impenetrability, which reflected things like Supervillain or bond villain lairs, or the Batcave.
The only thing I see in 4e is the Base perk, which at status zero gives you something values like a park bench or a corner booth in a dive bar or maybe the basement of an abandoned building.
In my Northport game, I have a bunch of low point adventurers taking over a row of run-down tenaments they are trying to upgrade. I think the perk should be leveled, to reflect upgrades to the properties, which they became involved with because of the dungeon entrance in the basement.

I have seen projected values for the cost of a fully stocked tavern in DF ($100k!!!) (This was presented in DF Denizens: Swashbucklers), but I liked the 20 point cost for a castle or mansion (both of which had tremendous CoL, and an appearance based on wealth- rickety and run down vs sumptious and formidable)
Any ideas?

Varyon 09-01-2019 01:00 PM

Re: Base and other property
 
Your post implies (no access to books currently) Base scales with Status. If that’s the case, I’d say “Only for determining the size of the Base” would be appropriate as a -80% Limitation on Status. So, each [+1] gives +1 Status for determining the size/resources of the Base.

awesomenessofme1 09-01-2019 01:18 PM

Re: Base and other property
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Varyon (Post 2282456)
Your post implies (no access to books currently) Base scales with Status.


Correct. Specifically, it gives access to a physical location equivalent to the housing for your Status minus 3 on the "What Cost of Living Gets You" table.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Varyon (Post 2282456)
If that’s the case, I’d say “Only for determining the size of the Base” would be appropriate as a -80% Limitation on Status. So, each [+1] gives +1 Status for determining the size/resources of the Base.

I don't know exactly how I'd price it, but that seems a little bit cheaper than what he wants. That would give you the equivalent of Status 5 (a "large mansion on an estate" at TL8) for only 8 points. If you were allowed to buy more than 8 levels to compensate for the penalty, you could get the equivalent of Status 8 (an "estate the size of a small country" at TL8) for only 11 points. But I think your idea is the most logical one at its core.

Michele 09-02-2019 02:32 AM

Re: Base and other property
 
Use Independent Income. That is leveled, and on top of that, if the party members own the buildings jointly, their monthly income from the rents (which will be a pittance given the quality of the buildings) is to be shared among them. It can easily go down to 1 point per character.

Thus they have a small additional income beyond what they earn with their adventuring and day jobs; they formally own the buildings but can't make a lot of money by just selling them (it's against the Advantage description, and you can come up with some in-game explanation such as an ancient law against that or whatever); and if they manage to improve the property, they can spend CPs on increasing their Independent Income advantage, thus getting more money per month out of it.

That other Advantage, Base, is important when you want the place not to be linked with you.

Gwythaint 09-02-2019 06:43 AM

Re: Base and other property
 
@Michele, I was already looking at independent income! @Varyon, making the perk leveled to represent improvements is exactly what I was thinking!
In game, the local beauracracy is happy to give deeds (for points) to PC's to prevent further dilapidation of a neighborhood where there were a number of cult murders, and too many vacant homes to support local, taxable businesses. Additionally, a cluster of druids are seeking to build a park in an area where there was a street collapse (spell failure opened a temporary gate in the dungeon below it); the street collapse directly abuts the PC's properties.
Revitalization in this city is an initiative due to massive population loss from plague; the beauracracy cannot flourish without some kind of revenue from taxation, so settlement is encouraged.

AlexanderHowl 09-02-2019 07:21 AM

Re: Base and other property
 
Independent Income assumes less control that would be the case in personal property. If you want an apartment building though, you can purchase it as assets with the money from your Wealth. In GURPS terms, apartment buildings probably cost (Cost of Living of Status × Number of Units × 60) and require (Cost of Living of Status × Number of Units x 0.1) for operations every month. Since Cost of Living of Status is probably 50% rent, the gross income expected is (Cost of Living of Status × Number of Units × 0.4). If you are financing, gross income likely drops by (Cost of Living of Status x Number of Units × 0.4 × Percentage Financing).

So, a 100 single unit Status 0 apartment building (assuming one Status 0 income per apartment) would have a total cost of ($600 × 100 × 60 = $3.6 million). It would generate $30,000 per month of revenue and cost $6,000 per month for operations, leaving $24,000 per month before financing costs. Financing such an endeavor would cost $19,200 per month, assuming 20% down and a 30 year loan at 4%.

So, let us say that a character with Multimillionaire 2 decides to purchase an apartment building with 75% of their assests (60% of their starting money). With $120 million down, they could make 20% down on $600 million of apartment buildings, around 15,000 Status 0 single apartments (or lesser numbers of family units). After costs and financing, they would earn $720,000 per month, a 7.2% return, though their money is locked up for 30 years in an immovable asset. Remember, these are GURPS $, so multiply by 2 for 2019 equivalents.

Donny Brook 09-02-2019 08:18 AM

Re: Base and other property
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Gwythaint (Post 2282452)
3e supplements (VtM for example) had some converted advantages that represented property not accounted for in cost of living, like Occult Library, and Mansion. A long gone site, Otherworld.org had an "Advanced Goblins & Grottoes" setting with a variable cost Sanctuary advantage, that had enhancement based on size, secrecy, and impenetrability, which reflected things like Supervillain or bond villain lairs, or the Batcave.
The only thing I see in 4e is the Base perk, which at status zero gives you something values like a park bench or a corner booth in a dive bar or maybe the basement of an abandoned building.
In my Northport game, I have a bunch of low point adventurers taking over a row of run-down tenaments they are trying to upgrade. I think the perk should be leveled, to reflect upgrades to the properties, which they became involved with because of the dungeon entrance in the basement.

The Base perk is not intended to be a way for characters to hold regular property. It may or may not include proper legal ownership and has an element of secrecy that complicates any commercial or regular residential use.

Quote:

I have seen projected values for the cost of a fully stocked tavern in DF ($100k!!!) (This was presented in DF Denizens: Swashbucklers), but I liked the 20 point cost for a castle or mansion (both of which had tremendous CoL, and an appearance based on wealth- rickety and run down vs sumptious and formidable)
Any ideas?
Why not role-play it? Have them own it like people do in real life.

Michele 09-02-2019 09:25 AM

Re: Base and other property
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl (Post 2282533)
Independent Income assumes less control that would be the case in personal property.

True, if you see personal property in the light of present-day US laws.
But it's a fantasy world out there.
For instance, maybe the local custom is that you can sell real estate only if you inherited it; if you received it as a gift or if you bought it, you can only bequeath it to your heirs. Or maybe that is not true for most real estate - but it is in some exceptional cases, such as the building in question.

Your alternative proposal makes sense - if the players are willing to sink lots of points in Wealth, and these are "low-point adventurers".

Ditto for the proposal of owning the place like in real life. That's the simplest solution, but you can do that in GURPS only if you are at least Wealthy. Or that's what I think.

Gwythaint 09-02-2019 09:31 AM

Re: Base and other property
 
Part of the reason I used Base is because I could not find another way to replicate a gift of ownership that wasn't specifically wealth. They didn't buy it, it isn't a room in a tavern, and it also isnt an apartment building; it is a run down set of two story single family row houses ( with a total of two rooms and a loft space and a root cellar that ties in to a common basement used by the whole block (or what is left of it)that was used for traskh pickup when that service was available. (The space above the underground common area was a green patch used as kitchen gardens by the same community) The houses are in bad shape and the idea was that they could be upgraded with expenditure of points and cash; it is more in line of Signature gear: tenament block than it is Batcave. The deed is not likely to be rescinded, no one can steal the place(although it could be robbed) and while the buildings could be burned, they keep the land and underground access.

evileeyore 09-02-2019 10:31 AM

Re: Base and other property
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Donny Brook (Post 2282542)
Why not role-play it? Have them own it like people do in real life.

Because there are minor in game effects.

Eventually somewhere on the level "and we don't have pay weekly upkeep" combined with "great place to store our labs/libraries/smithy/etc" and the ever popular (at least with me) "no more Guild politics"*.

But right now is on the level of "Have a place to sleep" even if it isn't reducing that cost at the moment (in fact... it might be slightly higher due to repair costs, though it hasn't been long enough to see how that shakes out) and "immediate, exclusive access to the 'easiest/uppermost levels' of the megadungeon" (which is something my Character will fight to retain). I mean... that one is rather available to everyone who can get into the sewers, but our access is under our control and available anytime we want it and not under anyone else's supervision.



* Not that this has ever been a problem for me, or my Characters, but it has reared it's ugly head a few times for others.


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