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Ack 10-03-2013 08:23 PM

grappling a flier
 
Okay, new question.

Character (A), who weighs over a ton, grapples Character (B).

Character (B) has both the ST to lift Character (A)'s weight, and has Flight (not winged). He promptly takes off, flips them both over, and piledrives Character (A) into the ground.


My GM is disputing the above. Can an ordinary grapple defeat the ability to fly away with the grappler, if the grapple-ee is strong enough to lift and fly with the grapple-er?

gilbertocarlos 10-03-2013 08:42 PM

Re: grappling a flier
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ack (Post 1655071)
Okay, new question.

Character (A), who weighs over a ton, grapples Character (B).

Character (B) has both the ST to lift Character (A)'s weight, and has Flight (not winged). He promptly takes off, flips them both over, and piledrives Character (A) into the ground.


My GM is disputing the above. Can an ordinary grapple defeat the ability to fly away with the grappler, if the grapple-ee is strong enough to lift and fly with the grapple-er?

A Grapples B
On B turn, B can try to grapple back or free himself.
Character A try to fly, B can resist being lifted.
Character B can try again to free himself, or grapple back, and he can try again every turn.
When character A get's high enough, he can try to piledrive, first by flipping, with, again, B can resist.
Then it's just a matter of getting enough speed and rolling to hit with the pile drive.

Since it's easy for him to attack back or free himself while you grapple, it's strongly suggested to attack from behind.

Ack 10-03-2013 08:45 PM

Re: grappling a flier
 
How exactly does B resist being lifted? He has no flight capability.

Dalillama 10-03-2013 08:54 PM

Re: grappling a flier
 
I think Gilbertocarlos got A and B mixed up. A flies. B is heavy. B grapples A. A, instead of trying to break the grapple, flies away. There's nothing in the Flight advantage as written to prevent A from doing this, as A does have the strength to lift B, and B can't oppose A's flight. B can choose to let go at some time before A piledrives him, and only take falling damage from that altitude, but that's about it. I'm guessing that this is a Supers game, so it might help to use comics as an illustration: The Hulk has got Superman in a bear hug (I know they're from different universes; doesn't matter here). Superman flies up in the air and then pancakes Hulk into the ground without trying to break the hold. What options has Hulk got?

Ack 10-03-2013 08:55 PM

Re: grappling a flier
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Dalillama (Post 1655110)
I think Gilbertocarlos got A and B mixed up. A flies. B is heavy. B grapples A. A, instead of trying to break the grapple, flies away. There's nothing in the Flight advantage as written to prevent A from doing this, as A does have the strength to lift B, and B can't oppose A's flight. B can choose to let go at some time before A piledrives him, and only take falling damage from that altitude, but that's about it. I'm guessing that this is a Supers game, so it might help to use comics as an illustration: The Hulk has got Superman in a bear hug (I know they're from different universes; doesn't matter here). Superman flies up in the air and then pancakes Hulk into the ground without trying to break the hold. What options has Hulk got?

Exactly my point.

DouglasCole 10-03-2013 08:55 PM

Re: grappling a flier
 
In this case, I'd treat the grappling character strictly as encumbrance, and hit the flier with the usual -4 DX penalty. If the DX roll fails, the flier falls out of the sky on making the transition, if it succeeds, and he can carry the weight, he lifts off.

There's a rule in Basic, even, about when a critter can just wander away when being grappled. Something like a flier should maybe struggle for a turn or two, but then once airborne, it's just carried weight.

Here it is: Exception: If you grapple a foe of more than twice your ST, you do not prevent him from moving away – you’re just extra encumbrance for him!

Ack 10-03-2013 09:07 PM

Re: grappling a flier
 
The thing here is, the grappler is stronger than the flier, though the flier still has the ST to treat the grappler as Light Encumbrance.

Is there anything in the rules to prevent the flier from simply taking off, performing a somersault, and slamming the grappler into the ground, back first?

DouglasCole 10-03-2013 09:16 PM

Re: grappling a flier
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ack (Post 1655123)
The thing here is, the grappler is stronger than the flier, though the flier still has the ST to treat the grappler as Light Encumbrance.

Is there anything in the rules to prevent the flier from simply taking off, performing a somersault, and slamming the grappler into the ground, back first?

In short, no. You would need to Break Free to loose yourself from the high-ST grappler's grip if you want to fling him. But to fly yourself into the ground? Nope. I'd say he's toast. That's just a collision with a hard object done at your Move. Of course, YOU are colliding with him colliding with the hard object, so I hope you've got the DR and/or HT to pull that off. :-)

The "more than twice your ST" thing is effectively equivalent to the "you can't piledrive/backbreaker someone who's more than 4xBL" in GURPS Martial Arts. In Basic, they're treating ST as pretty much a proxy for mass, which is OK if you squint hard at it.

I'd say that (again, using Basic) if your grappler friend is less than 4xBL, you can just lift off with him.

roguebfl 10-03-2013 09:19 PM

Re: grappling a flier
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ack (Post 1655123)
Is there anything in the rules to prevent the flier from simply taking off, performing a somersault, and slamming the grappler into the ground, back first?

The same rule that prevents the grappler from lifting a person of the ground and slam them down.

Mirtai 10-03-2013 09:34 PM

Re: grappling a flier
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by roguebfl (Post 1655134)
The same rule that prevents the grappler from lifting a person of the ground and slam them down.

Or the rule that prevents someone being grappled from moving at all unless they have twice their opponent's strength or greater. (pg 371 of the basic book)

Sure, it makes sense for someone with force of will flight to be able to fly regardless, so long as the other person grappling is under their weight limit...

But where is the rule that states that flight breaks the rule that a grappled person cannot move?


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