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-   -   Changes to Combat Reflexes [Basic] (http://forums.sjgames.com/showthread.php?t=166197)

AlexanderHowl 11-07-2019 08:49 AM

Changes to Combat Reflexes [Basic]
 
In my experience, the vast majority of PCs either start with Combat Reflexes or acquired Combat Reflexes after character creation, so it could be considered a defining feature of playing a PC in GURPS. The change that I am proposing would make Combat Reflexes the default for GURPS characters rather than the exception, reducing its effective cost to '0'. Thus, Enhanced Time Sense would end up costing 30 CP, lacking Combat Reflexes would be represented by a -15 CP disadvantage that I call Bystander, and Combat Paralysis would be worth -30 CP. What do you think?

naloth 11-07-2019 09:18 AM

Re: Changes to Combat Reflexes [Basic]
 
GMs can make any trait default or included if they want for campaigns where it makes sense. I don't see what advantage this would offer.

On the other hand, I can see a point for separating out the components or eliminating it as it is. +1 to all defenses doesn't need to be included since you can buy each defense separately.

Stormcrow 11-07-2019 10:29 AM

Re: Changes to Combat Reflexes [Basic]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl (Post 2294066)
In my experience, the vast majority of PCs either start with Combat Reflexes or acquired Combat Reflexes after character creation, so it could be considered a defining feature of playing a PC in GURPS.

In my experience, the vast majority of PCs don't start with Combat Reflexes and don't seek it later. Only those who specialize in combat do.

Quote:

Originally Posted by naloth (Post 2294068)
GMs can make any trait default or included if they want for campaigns where it makes sense. I don't see what advantage this would offer.

Exactly. If you want all PCs to have the abilities that Combat Reflexes provide, then just require them all to take Combat Reflexes and start them off with 15 extra character points to compensate. Any player who convinces you that they don't have to take Combat Reflexes can spend those 15 points elsewhere.

Celjabba 11-07-2019 10:35 AM

Re: Changes to Combat Reflexes [Basic]
 
Why not ?

But also, why ?

It is a cosmetic change, doesn't really modify anything.

That said, I disagree with your assessment that most characters have CR. Of my 3 last gurps campaign, I was 1/6, 1/5 and 3/5 with CR.

Luck, on the other hand, everyone have at least one level.

Dalin 11-07-2019 11:00 AM

Re: Changes to Combat Reflexes [Basic]
 
In the DFRPG campaign that I'm playing in, only one of five characters—the martial artist—has CR. I expect a few of us will add it eventually, but it's not at the top of the list for my cleric. The other PCs are a holy warrior, wizard, and thief.

Personally, even if I invest in Combat Reflexes eventually, I enjoy the narrative element of slowly becoming a skilled veteran rather than always starting out as one.

Edit: As an added data point, only three of the thirteen 250-point characters in Delvers to Go have Combat Reflexes out of the gate.

awesomenessofme1 11-07-2019 11:08 AM

Re: Changes to Combat Reflexes [Basic]
 
One of the flaws of CR, I think, is that it's all-or-nothing. There's no way to progress towards having it. But at the same time, I'm not sure there's a way to fix it. The advantage is deliberately underpriced, and breaking it up into similarly underpriced components could be unbalancing.

Anthony 11-07-2019 11:10 AM

Re: Changes to Combat Reflexes [Basic]
 
Combat Reflexes is strictly better than enhanced dodge or buying up basic speed to improve dodge, but that might indicate those traits being overpriced, rather than CR being underpriced.
Quote:

Originally Posted by awesomenessofme1 (Post 2294083)
One of the flaws of CR, I think, is that it's all-or-nothing. There's no way to progress towards having it. But at the same time, I'm not sure there's a way to fix it. The advantage is deliberately underpriced, and breaking it up into similarly underpriced components could be unbalancing.

Partial Combat Reflexes: 2/level, max 5 levels.
Each level gives +1 to wake up or recover from mental stun, and subtracts one turn from the amount of time the character freezes in a total surprise situation.

awesomenessofme1 11-07-2019 11:22 AM

Re: Changes to Combat Reflexes [Basic]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Anthony (Post 2294084)
Combat Reflexes is strictly better than enhanced dodge or buying up basic speed to improve dodge, but that might indicate those traits being overpriced, rather than CR being underpriced.

Well, no. The people behind GURPS have outright said that CR is deliberately underpriced to allow lower-point value characters to survive better.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anthony (Post 2294084)
Partial Combat Reflexes: 2/level, max 5 levels.
Each level gives +1 to wake up or recover from mental stun, and subtracts one turn from the amount of time the character freezes in a total surprise situation.

Well, now it's gone the other way. That's overpriced to the point that I don't think it would ever be worth it. That's the least useful part of CR.

ericthered 11-07-2019 11:34 AM

Re: Changes to Combat Reflexes [Basic]
 
I do think enhanced defenses are a touch overpriced, but I also think that its a good thing, because fights where both sides have sky-high defenses but mediocre attack skills are a drag.

I'd make the decision to use that rule or not on a campaign by campaign basis, but it has some surprising merit to it. Instead of players opting in to combat reflexes, they have to opt out. This encourages certain character builds. We all say that Reluctant killer is a very realistic trait that a large portion of the population has, but how many players actually remember to put it on their green non-combatant?

Gurps often has a break point where the cost of changing a number changes. In most traits, that break point is the default. Compare High Manual Dexterity with Ham-Fisted. Adjusting combat reflexes to be the default character puts the cost breakpoint in the correct position for defenses.

On the other hand, house rules have overhead, and I'm not sure if this is all that different from including combat reflexes in the "free campaign package". I almost always have campaign specific free traits or cost adjustments, so its easier for me to just include the trait there.

Celjabba 11-07-2019 11:50 AM

Re: Changes to Combat Reflexes [Basic]
 
CR is deliberately low priced, but even so, comparing it to the cost of further levels of enhanced defense is misleading. Just like the first level in a skill only cost 1, while further levels cost more, so CR is cheap, as it represent the huge but easy to gain step beside someone without combat experience and someone with it.


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