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Anthony 05-26-2013 02:08 AM

Re: Power Stone Price
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by hal (Post 1585559)
Technically, a Skill 12 Enchanter can make a powerstone of "power" 15 or any value above that.

You need a basic skill of 15 to be involved in enchantment at all. Once you have the skill, you can trade power for additional skill, but you need the skill of 15 first.

Flyndaran 05-26-2013 04:39 AM

Re: Power Stone Price
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Anthony (Post 1585635)
You need a basic skill of 15 to be involved in enchantment at all. Once you have the skill, you can trade power for additional skill, but you need the skill of 15 first.

Completely useless until you are an expert sounds rather ridiculous, don't you think?

Sunrunners_Fire 05-26-2013 07:06 AM

Re: Power Stone Price
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Flyndaran (Post 1585696)
Completely useless until you are an expert sounds rather ridiculous, don't you think?

Tis GURPS Magic. You expected something else?

More usefully: Powerstone (15 or less) [1]. IQ 14 [80], Magery 3 [35]. Other spells that you have to learn anywise [11]. Total, [127].

Flyndaran 05-26-2013 07:10 AM

Re: Power Stone Price
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Sunrunners_Fire (Post 1585743)
Tis GURPS Magic. You expected something else?

More usefully: Powerstone (15 or less) [1]. IQ 14 [80], Magery 3 [35]. Other spells that you have to learn anywise [11]. Total, [127].

I have quite a few issues with the skill/stat bloat and clunkiness of 3rd edition magic and how it wasn't really updated for 4th. But I try to just go with it to see how the assumptions would affect a magical society for threads like this one.
But the economics should include how rare skill 15 plus multiple skill magically active enchanters are.

Sunrunners_Fire 05-26-2013 08:00 AM

Re: Power Stone Price
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Flyndaran (Post 1585746)
I have quite a few issues with the skill/stat bloat and clunkiness of 3rd edition magic and how it wasn't really updated for 4th. But I try to just go with it to see how the assumptions would affect a magical society for threads like this one.
But the economics should include how rare skill 15 plus multiple skill magically active enchanters are.

If one desires plausible economics, then one must realize that enchantments aren't economically plausible as written.

Assuming the GURPS CoL and Job mechanics are considered plausible for some insane reason and one doesn't tell a master mage that their workings are only worth as much as a common merchant ... one mage-day of enchanting costs a minimum of G$122 at TL 3 and G$139 at TL 4 before material costs are taken into account. Lighten (25%) (100 Energy) thereby costs a minimum of G$12.2k. I don't know about you, but a not-stupid knight in one of my games isn't going to spend a decade or three paying for a single suit of armor to be enchanted to be slightly lighter than it'd otherwise be. Sure, it only takes a master mage four months of solid work to make, but no one is going to be willing to buy it ... and so the enchanter will spend their time doing useful things rather than wasting their life making garbage.

Opportunity costs are wonderful things. Heh. The end result of this is a) you ignore economics, b) you don't have enchanters or c) you change how enchanting works.

Fred Brackin 05-26-2013 09:47 AM

Re: Power Stone Price
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Sunrunners_Fire (Post 1585762)
one mage-day of enchanting costs a minimum of G$122 at TL 3 and G$139 at TL 4 before material costs are taken into account. Lighten (25%) (100 Energy) thereby costs a minimum of G$12.2k. I don't know about you, but a not-stupid knight in one of my games isn't going to spend a decade or three paying for a single suit of armor to be enchanted to be slightly lighter than it'd otherwise be. Sure, it only takes a master mage four months of solid work to make, but no one is going to be willing to buy it ..
.

Heavy warhorse, $5000. Basic DR 6 Plate c. $3000.

Said suit of armor with Lighten 25% done piecemeal and therefore Q&D all the way? A little less than 2 days for one master and no more than 5 journey men and you don't need all the journey man after you do the Torso. Probably around $500 even using your price of mage-days.

So that's probably going to give you back 1 Encumbrance category with +1 Dodge and 1 less FP per hour. Looks like a very good use of money to me.

Enchanting the DR6 suit to +1 DR is probably cheaper than buying a mundane DR7 suit too.

Sunrunners_Fire 05-26-2013 10:42 AM

Re: Power Stone Price
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin (Post 1585810)
Heavy warhorse, $5000. Basic DR 6 Plate c. $3000.

Said suit of armor with Lighten 25% done piecemeal and therefore Q&D all the way? A little less than 2 days for one master and no more than 5 journey men and you don't need all the journey man after you do the Torso. Probably around $500 even using your price of mage-days.

So that's probably going to give you back 1 Encumbrance category with +1 Dodge and 1 less FP per hour. Looks like a very good use of money to me.

Enchanting the DR6 suit to +1 DR is probably cheaper than buying a mundane DR7 suit too.

Assuming G$500 per (your number), that works out to a 7 or 8 suits a month. Anything less than that and its' not worth learning the enchantment. So how many suits of lightened (25%) armor are being purchased by the landed knights and nobility of your setting every month? That'll tell you how many apprentice enchanters are willing to learn the necessary magics. (Assuming for the moment that your setting has that many Magery 2+ mages willing to learn enchanting to begin with.)

Important numbers:
  • It takes more than a year of educating an already rare-as-hens-teeth individual (an IQ 14 near-genius with Magery 3 or an IQ 15 genius with Magery 2) just to cast that enchantment. And thats' just for a barely-capable enchanter able to do one armor enchantment out of the dozen spells total it knows. For an apprentice barely worth calling an enchanter. Less intelligent individuals are going to take progressively more time to get to that point. (IQ 10 + Magery 2 would need nearly four years to reach apprentice status.)
  • At TL 3, to have G$8k of adventuring gear means you are Filthy Rich (at minimum) and probably Status 4. Your monthly income is G$70k your CoL is G$60k and so your discretionary spending is G$10k.
  • At TL 4, to have G$8k of adventuring gear means you are Very Wealthy (at minimum) and probably Status 3. Your monthly income is G$16, your CoL is G$12k and so your discretionary spending is G$4k.
  • I'm assuming a journeyman Enchanter is Status 2 ("a business leader") due to it being a master mage in order to do enchantment at all. This means it is Wealthy. Status 2 gives a CoL of G$3k, a monthly income of G$3.5k at TL 3 or a monthly income of G$4k at TL 4. Its' discretionary spending isn't especially relevant but is easily calculable.

hal 05-26-2013 12:18 PM

Re: Power Stone Price
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Anthony (Post 1585635)
You need a basic skill of 15 to be involved in enchantment at all. Once you have the skill, you can trade power for additional skill, but you need the skill of 15 first.

Not according to GURPS FANTASY 1st edition, GURPS MAGIC 2nd edition, AND GURPS MAGIC for 4e. However, in GURPS MAGIC, there is that "requisite" that in order to cast ceremonial magic, you need a skill of 15 to cast the spell with other people. The specific wording is:

"If you know a spell at skill 15 or higher and have a group of willing assistants, you may opt to cast the spell by leading your assistants in an elaborate ritual that
maximizes the spellís power."

However, note that it states "AND" as opposed to a requisite of 15 in and of itself. Later in the enchantment rules, it specifies that Slow and dirty enchantments are the ONLY ceremonial spells that can be cast by a solitary mage.

Note too however, that in GURPS FANTASY 1st edition, as well as GURPS MAGIC 2nd edition, the mage with a skill of 12 could indeed, create a magic item with a higher power rating (aka, the requisite 15 power for the magic item to function) by use of trading time for skill levels. It was explicitely stated in those rules set that it is sometimes the only way to make the magic items with a higher power. If you'd like, I will dig up the actual quotes...

Sunrunners_Fire 05-26-2013 12:27 PM

Re: Power Stone Price
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by hal (Post 1585877)
Not according to GURPS FANTASY 1st edition, GURPS MAGIC 2nd edition, AND GURPS MAGIC for 4e. However, in GURPS MAGIC, there is that "requisite" that in order to cast ceremonial magic, you need a skill of 15 to cast the spell with other people. The specific wording is:

"If you know a spell at skill 15 or higher and have a group of willing assistants, you may opt to cast the spell by leading your assistants in an elaborate ritual that
maximizes the spellís power."

However, note that it states "AND" as opposed to a requisite of 15 in and of itself. Later in the enchantment rules, it specifies that Slow and dirty enchantments are the ONLY ceremonial spells that can be cast by a solitary mage.

4th Edition - GURPS Magic, pg 16:
Quote:

Originally Posted by GURPS Magic, pg 16
Enchantments must be performed using Ceremonial Magic (p. 12). Unlike most Ceremonial spells, however, enchantments can be performed alone (though most enchanters take advantage of the benefits of assistants). Lone enchanters cannot gain a skill bonus for using extra energy. To perform enchantments, the caster and any assistants must know both the Enchant spell and the specific spell being put on the item at an effective skill of 15 or better. Unskilled spectators cannot contribute energy to an enchantment.


Fred Brackin 05-26-2013 12:36 PM

Re: Power Stone Price
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Sunrunners_Fire (Post 1585837)
Assuming G$500 per (your number), that works out to a 7 or 8 suits a month. Anything less than that and its' not worth learning the enchantment. ]

Double that is possible. You break the full suit into parts and you only need 6 1 hour rituals with an hour of rest between them. The Master doesn't even need help with the hands, feet and Head parts of the armor. It's only 12 enchanter hours.

Status 2 for a secondary/journeyman Enchnter is excessive. He's not a "business leader". His Master/Head of the Enchantment Circle might be. He might only be Staus 1 and it's the Guildmaster of Enchnters who's stauts 2.

Remember, Status 0 is not an actual average of how the population lives at
TL3. It's a game mechanical norm. That secondary Enchanter with a rare-ish but not earthshaking talent might well take a job supporting "only" Status 0 when the alternatives were Status =2 serf or Status -1 poor citizen.


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