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-   -   Combat Reflexes without defense bonus (http://forums.sjgames.com/showthread.php?t=155744)

RyanW 02-13-2018 01:56 PM

Combat Reflexes without defense bonus
 
In an effort to reprice Combat Reflexes more fairly, I was thinking of getting rid of the defense bonus and instead having it merely allow purchase of one level of any (or all) enhanced defenses. So minus the defense bonus, how much is Combat Reflexes really worth? The goal is to make it an attractive option, rather than step one in building a fighter.

Fred Brackin 02-13-2018 02:02 PM

Re: Combat Reflexes without defense bonus
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by RyanW (Post 2158179)
In an effort to reprice Combat Reflexes more fairly, I was thinking of getting rid of the defense bonus and instead having it merely allow purchase of one level of any (or all) enhanced defenses. So minus the defense bonus, how much is Combat Reflexes really worth? The goal is to make it an attractive option, rather than step one in building a fighter.

Rules Exemption Perk: Never "freezes" in combat. Then maybe another Perk for the bonus to Fast-draw.

Not sure if there is anything else worth even that much.

Refplace 02-13-2018 02:08 PM

Re: Combat Reflexes without defense bonus
 
Fast Draw bonus [4]
Resistance to Fright Checks +2 (Resistant, Occasional +3) [4]
Never Freeze in surprise situation (Resistant, Rare, Immunity) [5]
IQ +6 to wake Up, or Recover from Surprise, stun (Resistant, Common +8) [8]
Side gets +1 Initive

Not a perfect match but as you can see its a great deal even without the Active Defense bonus.

weby 02-13-2018 02:09 PM

Re: Combat Reflexes without defense bonus
 
Pricing on some of the parts that are clear:
+1 fast draw: 2 pt
+2 fright check: 4 pt

Then less clear:
You never “freeze” in a surprise situation. Sounds like immunity at common or occasional rarity: so 10-15 points
Then the +6 to those IQ rolls is likely about -60% for high combat games and closer to -80% for low: so 24-48 points. Or maybe there is some other trait that could be used?
Initiative: No idea on pricing.

But total is thus about 40-75 points.

So even without the defenses the value is more than 15 points, how much more depends a lot on the IQ roll bonuses and Initiative values

Maz 02-13-2018 02:31 PM

Re: Combat Reflexes without defense bonus
 
I would keep it at 15 pts.

If you ever use the surprise rules, then it is still worth it. If you never really use them and just go for "whoever has highest speed go first", then it will rarely be worth it.

Anthony 02-13-2018 02:45 PM

Re: Combat Reflexes without defense bonus
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by RyanW (Post 2158179)
In an effort to reprice Combat Reflexes more fairly, I was thinking of getting rid of the defense bonus and instead having it merely allow purchase of one level of any (or all) enhanced defenses. So minus the defense bonus, how much is Combat Reflexes really worth?

Depends on the game. I'd probably price its components as follows.
  • Fast-Draw Talent: 2. +1 to all types of Fast-Draw.
  • Fright Resistance: 3. +2 to fright checks. Unlike Fearlessness, this does not affect intimidation, or supernatural fear that does not cause a fright check.
  • Reduced Surprise: 2/level(max 6). Each level gives +1 to rolls to recover from mental stun, and subtracts 1 turn from total surprise. If you are leader, add 1/3 your levels to initiative in partial surprise situations, otherwise add 1/6.
  • You may take fast-draw talent, fright resistance, and reduced surprise 6 at a cost of [15] as a package deal.
Note that this means full CR has [17] in advantages even without the bonus to active defenses. I suspect most people would take something like reduced surprise/3 [6] and fearlessness 2 [4] instead of combat reflexes, though; fast-draw, in particular, is a skill people don't value much.

malloyd 02-13-2018 03:03 PM

Re: Combat Reflexes without defense bonus
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by weby (Post 2158189)
You never “freeze” in a surprise situation. Sounds like immunity at common or occasional rarity: so 10-15 points
Then the +6 to those IQ rolls is likely about -60% for high combat games and closer to -80% for low: so 24-48 points. Or maybe there is some other trait that could be used?

These are the same trait (freezing in a surprise situation is a kind of mental stunning), and you are seriously overvaluing an IQ bonus to recover from it - compare it to Hard to Kill or Hard to Subdue or High Pain Threshold (which gives you a +3 vs physical stun for 10 points in addition to its other benefits). If you were Immune to Mental Stun you wouldn't need to roll, and the "freeze" effect wouldn't do anything, and I wouldn't put Mental Stun off the range of possibilities for Resistance. Though I might call it very common, for 30 points. On that basis 15 points would get you a +8, shading that to +6 for most but immune to a particular (admittedly serious) kind seems about an even trade, so call it 15 points for both these.

Quote:

Initiative: No idea on pricing.
Not a lot - a single point in Tactics buys you a +1 after all, and does other stuff too, though of course this stacks. It's certainly not worth more than 5 points.

David Johnston2 02-13-2018 03:12 PM

Re: Combat Reflexes without defense bonus
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by weby (Post 2158189)
Pricing on some of the parts that are clear:
+1 fast draw: 2 pt
+2 fright check: 4 pt

Then less clear:
You never “freeze” in a surprise situation. Sounds like immunity at common or occasional rarity: so 10-15 points
Then the +6 to those IQ rolls is likely about -60% for high combat games and closer to -80% for low: so 24-48 points. Or maybe there is some other trait that could be used?
Initiative: No idea on pricing.

But total is thus about 40-75 points.

So even without the defenses the value is more than 15 points, how much more depends a lot on the IQ roll bonuses and Initiative values

"Costs that much" isn't the same thing as "worth that much". There is no way that any 150 point campaign would see a lot of people lining up to pay 75 or even 40 points for a combat advantage that doesn't actually make you better at fighting.

AlexanderHowl 02-13-2018 03:16 PM

Re: Combat Reflexes without defense bonus
 
I agree. I am not quite sure why you want to change Combat Reflexes because it is already fair. It is an essential advantage for any combat-oriented character and is hardly abusive considering that everyone can purchase it, even after character creation, and it has been unchanged for 30 years because it works.

AlexanderHowl 02-13-2018 03:19 PM

Re: Combat Reflexes without defense bonus
 
Yes, 3rd edition was published in 1988, thirty years ago.


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