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-   -   Mind Control and Body Control Spells vs Elder Things in DF (http://forums.sjgames.com/showthread.php?t=150921)

lachimba 07-15-2017 06:57 AM

Mind Control and Body Control Spells vs Elder Things in DF
 
I'm sure a more 'experienced' player is going to argue with me here*.

To rule out any arguments do Mind Control and/or Body Control spells work on Elder Things in Dungeon Fantasy






*Tried to convince me that body control and mind control spells work vs undead and elementals.... because reasons. I had to explain central nervous systems versus eldritch energy animating bodies.

mlangsdorf 07-15-2017 07:14 AM

Re: Mind Control and Body Control Spells vs Elder Things in DF
 
Most Body Control spells are going to be metabolic hazards, and elementals and the undead are generally Immune to Metabolic Hazards. But Deathtouch, for instance, just does damage and explicitly affects the undead. I'd probably let spells like Tanglefoot affect undead, elementals, and constructs.

Similarly, many undead and elementals explicitly have Immune to Mind Control and can't be effected by them. Also, they lack free will (Magic p 133) and have other specific control spells, so they can't be affected by Mind Control spells.

The sample Elder Things in DF: Dungeons and DF: Monsters 1 almost always have Immune to Metabolic Hazards (Watchers at the End of Time are just very resistant) and would ignore most Body Control spells.

Most Elder Things have IQ 6+, no Immunity to Mind Control, and possibly some measure of free will. There is no specific Control Elder Thing spell. There is no specific prohibition against using Mind Control against them (they're not subject to Banish but that's not relevant here). There's no reason to suspect that they're not vulnerable to Mind Control.

Of course, almost every published Elder Thing has Magic Resistance 6+ and a decent Will, so actually casting Mind Control spells on an Elder Thing will mostly fail. But if your wizard spots a Demon From Between the Stars and wants to cast Loyalty on it, there shouldn't be anything stopping you.

evileeyore 07-15-2017 11:45 AM

Re: Mind Control and Body Control Spells vs Elder Things in DF
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by lachimba (Post 2110468)
Tried to convince me that body control and mind control spells work vs undead and elementals.... because reasons.

In some (many/most?) cases they should. Undead still have bodies and minds (maybe not brains, but it ain't called 'brain control')... same with Elder Things.

At the end of the day "A Wizard did it" is still an excuse.

Quote:

I had to explain central nervous systems versus eldritch energy animating bodies.
Which is cool and all... but with no advantage giving an immunity to those spells, the beast, well... has no advantage granting immunity to those spells.

Which is how GURPS works. Want immunity to something, take the advantage.




Quote:

Originally Posted by mlangsdorf (Post 2110471)
Most Body Control spells are going to be metabolic hazards...

Where does this idea come from?

Sure, I can see some spells being useless (like Hunger, Thirst, Nauseate) on Undead (some Undead)... but Elder Things still gotta eat (unless they have Doesn't Eat/Drink).


But really, if Immunity to Metabolic Hazards comes with Immunity to Body Control, I've a few Characters that are happier...

sir_pudding 07-15-2017 12:19 PM

Re: Mind Control and Body Control Spells vs Elder Things in DF
 
No, they aren't immune to mind control, in fact the chaos ooze is especially vulnerable to it (otherwise it would TPK most parties).

mlangsdorf 07-15-2017 12:34 PM

Re: Mind Control and Body Control Spells vs Elder Things in DF
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by sir_pudding (Post 2110501)
No, they aren't immune to mind control, in fact the chaos ooze is especially vulnerable to it (otherwise it would TPK most parties).

What's the page reference for a Chaos Ooze? The Oozes in DF: Monsters 2 are specifically Immune to Mind Control (DF: Monsters 2 p 11).

mlangsdorf 07-15-2017 12:41 PM

Re: Mind Control and Body Control Spells vs Elder Things in DF
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by evileeyore (Post 2110497)
Where does this idea come from?

Magic, p 35: "Except as noted, [body control spells] only affect living beings."

Basic p 81, definition of Metabolic hazards: "Metabolic Hazards (all threats that only affect the living, including all disease and poison, plus such syndromes as altitude sickness, bends, seasickness, and jet lag)."

So Body Control spells, by definition, don't generally affect the undead, golems, or machines. It's pretty reasonable to say that IMH gives fairly complete immunity to them, aside from specific exemptions like Death Touch or Hinder.*

* I would accept arguments that Rooted Feet and Tanglefoot should also affect undead, golems, and the like but that Magic just had poor editing in places.

sir_pudding 07-15-2017 01:08 PM

Re: Mind Control and Body Control Spells vs Elder Things in DF
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by mlangsdorf (Post 2110505)
What's the page reference for a Chaos Ooze? The Oozes in DF: Monsters 2 are specifically Immune to Mind Control (DF: Monsters 2 p 11).

"More Psionic Threats" (by I guy I imagine is pretty much Batman, I've never heard of him, but he sounds like a pretty cool dude, I guess), in Pyramid #3/80: Fantasy Threats and Pyramid: Dungeon Fantasy Collected. I don't have time for page references ATM, will edit them in later.

Anyway, they are deserialized shoggoths, and I emphasized that they are programmed Mind Warper slaves in order to make them not an automatic TPK (they are definitely an example of the "tough encounter with a trick"). My point was that prior Elder Things aren't invulnerable to mind control, which I remembered noting at the time.

evileeyore 07-15-2017 01:39 PM

Re: Mind Control and Body Control Spells vs Elder Things in DF
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by mlangsdorf (Post 2110506)
Magic, p 35: "Except as noted, [body control spells] only affect living beings."

Excellent reason.

The rest, not so much.

Quote:

Basic p 81, definition of Metabolic hazards: "Metabolic Hazards (all threats that only affect the living, including all disease and poison, plus such syndromes as altitude sickness, bends, seasickness, and jet lag)."
So.. all mundane metabolic hazards. Most distinctly not "and Magic makes you Fumble your sword".

As I said... I can see an argument for Nauseate not affecting most Undead (leaving aside the above explicit reason from pg 35). But not Elder Things or creatures that still eat but have IMH.

Or does Resistant to Metabolic Hazards give it's bonus to the Resistance roll as well? (Note I disagree that it should)

Quote:

So Body Control spells, by definition, don't generally affect the undead, golems, or machines. It's pretty reasonable to say that IMH gives fairly complete immunity to them, aside from specific exemptions like Death Touch or Hinder.*

* I would accept arguments that Rooted Feet and Tanglefoot should also affect undead, golems, and the like but that Magic just had poor editing in places.
I disagree with that the bolded section is reasonable at all. I suspect you are inferring a connection that does not exist.

Would you allow an Ogre PC to be (mostly) Immune to the Body Control college simply because they took IMH?

Ogres still breath, is our above Ogre PC immune to the Choke spell?


Again, I can see taking specific spells (Nauseate, Hunger, Thirst, etc) and saying, no, those spells don't affect this creature for *reasons*, even if said creature didn't have Advantages to specifically work against it (a Living Flesh Golem that subsists on Electricity, DE/D but requires Lightning spells (or to stand around in lightning storms) cast at it periodically), but not "IMH makes you immune to Body Control spells because Undead are immune to Body Control spells and have IMH".

simply Nathan 07-15-2017 01:47 PM

Re: Mind Control and Body Control Spells vs Elder Things in DF
 
Body spells that bend, rend, manipulate, or reshape flesh work on undead made of flesh. Being immune to metabolic hazards doesn't change what materials they're made of.

Elder Things that manifest as things like humanoids with no faces or giant collections of mouths and tentacles are still made of flesh, so flesh-altering spells will still do things to them.

Casting Hunger on the Mouth of the Abyss is a bad idea, so is casting it on a vampire. And you can read the mind of an elder thing, it's just that if you get any meaningful information at all out of such an alien mind it's liable to break you - their minds are still minds.

sir_pudding 07-15-2017 02:03 PM

Re: Mind Control and Body Control Spells vs Elder Things in DF
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by evileeyore (Post 2110518)
Would you allow an Ogre PC to be (mostly) Immune to the Body Control college simply because they took IMH?

"Ogre" is one of those fantasy creature names that is used for a lot of disparate things, I wouldn't give ItM to a D&D-esque ogre at all, but might give it to an African ogre, probably would to a Japanese ogre (since it is a kind of demon) and definitely to a cybertank.

Quote:

Ogres still breath, is our above Ogre PC immune to the Choke spell?
Cybertanks explicitly don't, that's why you can drive them through water hexes.

Otherwise, yeah, I agree Doesn't Breathe grants immunity to choking, but otherwise choking isn't a Metabolic Hazard (in GURPS terms, obviously it is is in a literal sense).

Magical Spells can be excluded with features, or whatever so the "only affects the living" clause could apply to things that otherwise didn't have Doesn't Breath though. You can't cast Choke on a car with an ICE, for example.

IMO, Elder Things are alive, though.


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