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-   -   [Powers] limited duration with short recharge (http://forums.sjgames.com/showthread.php?t=171275)

Gnome 11-28-2020 09:08 AM

[Powers] limited duration with short recharge
 
I am trying to build an ability that gives the user an Extra Attack, but only for a limited amount of time (say ten seconds), after which it requires a "recharge" time of ten seconds before it can be used again.

I've looked at Limited Use, Maximum Duration and Takes Recharge, but they all seem semi-overlapping and hard to combine.
I think I basically want Maximum Duration but with a shorter recharge time, which would seem like an enhancement on the Maximum Duration limitation, but the value of that is hard to assess.

AlexanderHowl 11-28-2020 09:48 AM

Re: [Powers] limited duration with short recharge
 
Maximum Duration is really only appropriate for switchable and beneficial abilities that you would normally use indefinitely (Extra Attack does not really apply). Takes Recharge (-10%) would give a minute of use before requiring two minutes of recharge, so 10 seconds of use and 20 seconds of recharge may be an equivalent limitation, since it would have a 1:2 ratio of use:recharge. A 1:1 ratio of use:recharge would likely then only be worth only -5%.

DangerousThing 11-28-2020 10:08 AM

Re: [Powers] limited duration with short recharge
 
How many fights last more than 10 seconds?

AlexanderHowl 11-28-2020 11:43 AM

Re: [Powers] limited duration with short recharge
 
When you are talking about supers, the combination of high defenses and high damage reduction can cause fights to last for a while. I have seen fights last for over two minutes in game time (which ended up being over two hours in real time).

Plane 11-28-2020 02:51 PM

Re: [Powers] limited duration with short recharge
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Gnome (Post 2355401)
I am trying to build an ability that gives the user an Extra Attack,
but only for a limited amount of time (say ten seconds),
after which it requires a "recharge" time of ten seconds
before it can be used again.

I've looked at Limited Use, Maximum Duration and Takes Recharge, but they all seem semi-overlapping and hard to combine.

To know how to approach it we first need to know whether things like Extra Attack or Compartmentalized Mind (No Mental Separation) function like Always On abilities or Transient "free action" ones.

P153's guidelines take some time for me to puzzle through...

I think maybe it doesn't fit the 2nd requirement of an Always-On ability? The "built-in discrete uses" part: you do have discrete uses of attacks, and once you use them up, you need to wait until your next turn for it to recharge and give your more uses, right?

Which should mean that it's functionally transient as a free action?

The underlying advantage basically has "a duration the user can't control" (1 second or less) because a finite duration is specified? That being 1 second, at which point it will be the next turn and you use another free action to reactivate it?

You could buy "Extended Duration x10" as a +40% enhancement. This means you only need to use 1 free action instead of 10 free actions to get 10 seconds worth of Extra Attack.

That's largely pointless (free actions are free) unless it were tweaked to take longer than a free action to activate Extra Attack, like for example if you wanted to limit it with "Takes Extra Time".

You'd need several levels of that to make up the cost of Extended Duration though... like for example here's a couple ways to save 2 points by netting -10%:

(Takes Extra Time 3 -30% Extended Duration 3x +20%) take 4 ready maneuvers to prep, then you get 3 seconds worth of +1 attack
(Takes Extra Time 5 -50% Extended Duration 10x +40%) take 15 readies to prep, then you get 10 seconds worth of +1 attack
(Takes Extra Time 7 -70% Extended Duration 30x +60%) take a minute of readies to prep, then you get 30 seconds worth of +1 attack)
(Takes Extra Time 9 -90% Extended Duration 100x +80%) take 4m of readies to prep, then you get 100 seconds (1m40s) worth of +1 attack)
(Takes Extra Time 11 -110% Extended Duration 300x +100%) take 15ms of readies to prep, get 300 seconds (5 minutes) of +1 attack
TET 13 -130 / ED 1000x +120 = 1h of readies get 1000s (16m40s) of +1 attack
TET 15 -150 / ED 3000x +140 = 8h of readies get 50m of +1 attack
TET 17 -170 / ED 10,000x +160 = 30h (1d6h) get 10,000s (166m40s or 2h46m40s) of +1 attack
and so on... seems pretty balanced. It only becomes a problem if you allow Permanent at +300% and the GM could always opt to just disallow permanent and follow existing patterns (30 million x duration at +300%, 100 million x duration at +320%, etc)

TET increases activation time by x32 per -40% while ED increases duration by x10 per +40% so it becomes progressively worse the more you pair this. It's great if you can schedule lots of prep time before a known battle but otherwise is bad because you're very inflexible about when you can fight.

Aftermath: TET (-5% per level) is one idea to shift that (activate as a free action, but you're forced to pay the readies when duration expires) but I don't think Aftermath should be allowed on abilities with durations longer than 12 hours. That's when Maximum Duration ceases to give you points, and getting Aftermath on an ability w/ Maximum Duration: 100 years (-0%) while technically legal in PU8p11 terms, is an abusive point crock.

Sort of like spending 50 points on this:

High Pain Threshold [10]
HP+4 [8]
Regeneration (Extreme, Costs 4 Hit Points per second -80%) [32]
Half the cost of Regeneration (Very Fast) [100] and netting double the HP per second :)

We gotta be wary of how we apply time/HP/FP based limitations on advantages (or enhancements to advantages) which give us extra time/HP/FP

Maybe that's why only Limited Use and Trigger (1 m intervals) was initially specified for Aftermath? Max Duration wasn't actually mentioned until the Expanded Aftermath example of Insubstantiality.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gnome (Post 2355401)
I think I basically want Maximum Duration but with a shorter recharge time, which would seem like an enhancement on the Maximum Duration limitation, but the value of that is hard to assess.

I don't know if we have a term for a mitigator (limitation which makes disadvantages cheaper) as applied to limitations.

We do have "Not Limitation is an Enhancement" precedent in Fantasy (F130 "Behind the Curtain" pricing +40% for "not having Divided Magery") which is how Either/Or Limitations are designed (Restructurable Magery being one such) but I don't know if that could help here...

I don't think you actually bother with giving Maximum Duration to transient abilities though, only stuff which is infinite duration by default.

Gnome 11-29-2020 05:38 AM

Re: [Powers] limited duration with short recharge
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by DangerousThing (Post 2355415)
How many fights last more than 10 seconds?

Not many. Ideally I would want to be able to choose duration and recharge time. With the 10s, it should last for one fight but not another if it comes on the heels of the first. But I might want to tweak it to 5/5 so itís likely it runs out during a fight and might even come back if you can stall the fight a bit.

Gnome 11-29-2020 05:40 AM

Re: [Powers] limited duration with short recharge
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl (Post 2355412)
Maximum Duration is really only appropriate for switchable and beneficial abilities that you would normally use indefinitely (Extra Attack does not really apply). Takes Recharge (-10%) would give a minute of use before requiring two minutes of recharge, so 10 seconds of use and 20 seconds of recharge may be an equivalent limitation, since it would have a 1:2 ratio of use:recharge. A 1:1 ratio of use:recharge would likely then only be worth only -5%.

Iím not really seeing how Max Duration doesnít apply. The only canonical use I can think of is on ATR in DF11 (Uninterrupted Flurry). How is ATR different from EA with respect to duration?

Gnome 11-29-2020 05:45 AM

Re: [Powers] limited duration with short recharge
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Plane (Post 2355459)
To know how to approach it we first need to know whether things like Extra Attack or Compartmentalized Mind (No Mental Separation) function like Always On abilities or Transient "free action" ones.

P153's guidelines take some time for me to puzzle through...

I think maybe it doesn't fit the 2nd requirement of an Always-On ability? The "built-in discrete uses" part: you do have discrete uses of attacks, and once you use them up, you need to wait until your next turn for it to recharge and give your more uses, right?

Which should mean that it's functionally transient as a free action?

The underlying advantage basically has "a duration the user can't control" (1 second or less) because a finite duration is specified? That being 1 second, at which point it will be the next turn and you use another free action to reactivate it?

You could buy "Extended Duration x10" as a +40% enhancement. This means you only need to use 1 free action instead of 10 free actions to get 10 seconds worth of Extra Attack.

That's largely pointless (free actions are free) unless it were tweaked to take longer than a free action to activate Extra Attack, like for example if you wanted to limit it with "Takes Extra Time".

You'd need several levels of that to make up the cost of Extended Duration though... like for example here's a couple ways to save 2 points by netting -10%:

(Takes Extra Time 3 -30% Extended Duration 3x +20%) take 4 ready maneuvers to prep, then you get 3 seconds worth of +1 attack
(Takes Extra Time 5 -50% Extended Duration 10x +40%) take 15 readies to prep, then you get 10 seconds worth of +1 attack
(Takes Extra Time 7 -70% Extended Duration 30x +60%) take a minute of readies to prep, then you get 30 seconds worth of +1 attack)
(Takes Extra Time 9 -90% Extended Duration 100x +80%) take 4m of readies to prep, then you get 100 seconds (1m40s) worth of +1 attack)
(Takes Extra Time 11 -110% Extended Duration 300x +100%) take 15ms of readies to prep, get 300 seconds (5 minutes) of +1 attack
TET 13 -130 / ED 1000x +120 = 1h of readies get 1000s (16m40s) of +1 attack
TET 15 -150 / ED 3000x +140 = 8h of readies get 50m of +1 attack
TET 17 -170 / ED 10,000x +160 = 30h (1d6h) get 10,000s (166m40s or 2h46m40s) of +1 attack
and so on... seems pretty balanced. It only becomes a problem if you allow Permanent at +300% and the GM could always opt to just disallow permanent and follow existing patterns (30 million x duration at +300%, 100 million x duration at +320%, etc)

TET increases activation time by x32 per -40% while ED increases duration by x10 per +40% so it becomes progressively worse the more you pair this. It's great if you can schedule lots of prep time before a known battle but otherwise is bad because you're very inflexible about when you can fight.

Aftermath: TET (-5% per level) is one idea to shift that (activate as a free action, but you're forced to pay the readies when duration expires) but I don't think Aftermath should be allowed on abilities with durations longer than 12 hours. That's when Maximum Duration ceases to give you points, and getting Aftermath on an ability w/ Maximum Duration: 100 years (-0%) while technically legal in PU8p11 terms, is an abusive point crock.

Sort of like spending 50 points on this:

High Pain Threshold [10]
HP+4 [8]
Regeneration (Extreme, Costs 4 Hit Points per second -80%) [32]
Half the cost of Regeneration (Very Fast) [100] and netting double the HP per second :)

We gotta be wary of how we apply time/HP/FP based limitations on advantages (or enhancements to advantages) which give us extra time/HP/FP

Maybe that's why only Limited Use and Trigger (1 m intervals) was initially specified for Aftermath? Max Duration wasn't actually mentioned until the Expanded Aftermath example of Insubstantiality.


I don't know if we have a term for a mitigator (limitation which makes disadvantages cheaper) as applied to limitations.

We do have "Not Limitation is an Enhancement" precedent in Fantasy (F130 "Behind the Curtain" pricing +40% for "not having Divided Magery") which is how Either/Or Limitations are designed (Restructurable Magery being one such) but I don't know if that could help here...

I don't think you actually bother with giving Maximum Duration to transient abilities though, only stuff which is infinite duration by default.

I can’t say I understand the Extended Duration idea, since by default EA lasts forever. Seems like you’re paying to make it worse. Aftermath sounds promising, but I still don’t know how to limit duration of an always on ability without Max Duration

Gnome 11-29-2020 06:00 AM

Re: [Powers] limited duration with short recharge
 
What if I combine Limited Use 1 (Slow Reload, 10 s), -35% with Reduced Duration (1/6), -15%?
The idea is that Limited Use creates a duration for EA of 1 minute, and Reduced Duration takes this down to 10s.

The only problem here is that reloading is a distinct set of actions, whereas I want the "recharge" to happen automatically while you wait...

AlexanderHowl 11-29-2020 06:59 AM

Re: [Powers] limited duration with short recharge
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Gnome (Post 2355535)
Iím not really seeing how Max Duration doesnít apply. The only canonical use I can think of is on ATR in DF11 (Uninterrupted Flurry). How is ATR different from EA with respect to duration?

ATR makes it impossible to socially interact with people, or use Feint against people, who do not possess an equivalent ATR, meaning that you have to switch it off (beneficial and switchable, but problematic if always left on). Conversely, there are not associated problems with using Compartmentalized Mind or Extra Attack, so they are always on.

There is also that matter of game balance. There is no reason at all why people would not take Maximum Duration with Compartmentalized Mind or Extra Attack if it was an option. For example, imagine a superhero with Extra Attack 4 (Maximum Duration, 20 seconds, -75%; Multiattack, +20%; Single Skill, Karate, -20%) [25]. For 25 CP, they could make 100 attacks in 20 seconds, and parry 120 times, easily allowing them to take out an infantry company and defend against all their attacks.


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