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-   -   Darkvision (vanilla and magic -10%) (http://forums.sjgames.com/showthread.php?t=151522)

lachimba 08-27-2017 04:19 AM

Darkvision (vanilla and magic -10%)
 
Argument with player.


Darkvision

1. Does it require eyes? (On a otherwise normal human)

2. Is it blocked by a blindfold?

3. Do other vision impediments affect it?

4. If you have extra eyes (360 vision etc do you then see out of the extra eyes)

Phantasm 08-27-2017 04:55 AM

Re: Darkvision (vanilla and magic -10%)
 
My rulings:

1. Yes. Same goes for Infravision, Ultravision, Hyperspectral Vision, Microscopic Vision, Telescopic Vision, Penetrating Vision, and Night Vision. These advantages basically alter how your eyes work. Only if you have Injury Tolerance (No Eyes) or Clairsentience (Clairvoyance) do these become detached from the Mark I Eyeball.

2. Yes. Again, same goes for the other Vision type advantages. Of course, if he also has Clairsentience (Clairvoyance), he can use Dark Vision (or any other similar Vision advantage) through that, as it's "displace your other senses". Injury Tolerance (No Eyes) of course makes blindfolds useless or cosmetic.

3. This is a tough one. Bad Sight (Near- and Far-sighted) and Afflictions that afflict Blindness affect Dark Vision normally. Obscure may or may not work; a blizzard or sandstorm would affect normally, a cloud of black smoke is questionable (but I'd rule that it would, because smoke), a field of magical or superhumanly generated darkness would not. Darkness penalties, of course, are totally negated by Dark Vision, so turning off the lights in a room with no other sources won't bother him at all. Brightness penalties (such as having a spotlight shone in your face) probably still apply, but I'd have to look through Enhanced Senses some more to be sure how that works in-play.

4. 360 Degree Vision, Peripheral Vision, and Tunnel Vision all alter the viewing field. If you have Extra Head, or are explaining 360 Degree and/or Peripheral Vision as being extra eyes around the head, then yes, you see out the extra eyes with your Dark Vision.


Hope this helps. What was the nature of the argument?

lachimba 08-27-2017 05:15 AM

Re: Darkvision (vanilla and magic -10%)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Phantasm (Post 2119367)
Hope this helps. What was the nature of the argument?

Player: Its a magic sense ergo doesn't require phyiscal organs


oh and now I remember what set it off.

5. Does a Gorgon's flesh to stone work via Dark Vision?

Phantasm 08-27-2017 05:40 AM

Re: Darkvision (vanilla and magic -10%)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by lachimba (Post 2119369)
Player: Its a magic sense ergo doesn't require phyiscal organs


oh an now I remember what set it off.

5. Does a Gorgon's flesh to stone transmite via Dark Vision?

It's probably possible to come up with a Dark Vision build that eschews eyes altogether, probably by Linking it to IT (No Eyes) with Switchable on IT, but I'd have to hammer it out.

If you plonk a power modifier like Magic (-10%) on Dark Vision, that power modifier basically tells you when the Dark Vision wouldn't work; in the case of Magic as defined in Powers, that means it's turned off in anti-magic spells and no-mana fields.

As for the petrifying gaze of a Gorgon affecting someone with Dark Vision, the gorgon's gaze is generally defined as "requires eye contact"; the gorgon and the victim both need to lock eyes with the other. I'd say that Dark Vision is actually a detriment in this case as it lets you make eye contact easier regardless of darkness penalties. (It's easier to avoid eye contact if you can't see the gorgon's eyes, after all.)

I can understand where his "it's magic so it doesn't need eyes" argument is coming from, but since GURPS errs on the side of "movie realism" (for the most part), you'd need to build Dark Vision in a manner that removes the eyes from the equation completely. Just slapping "Magic, -10%" on it tells you when he cannot use it, but doesn't give a benefit of removing the Mark I Eyeball from the equation. He'd need an enhancement on Dark Vision to do that.

lachimba 08-27-2017 05:55 AM

Re: Darkvision (vanilla and magic -10%)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Phantasm (Post 2119370)
It's probably possible to come up with a Dark Vision build that eschews eyes altogether, probably by Linking it to IT (No Eyes) with Switchable on IT, but I'd have to hammer it out.

If you plonk a power modifier like Magic (-10%) on Dark Vision, that power modifier basically tells you when the Dark Vision wouldn't work; in the case of Magic as defined in Powers, that means it's turned off in anti-magic spells and no-mana fields.
.

I tried to explain this and I was tired after five plus hours of GMing. Asking here and getting some different explanations is better for my health.

Bruno 08-27-2017 06:27 AM

Re: Darkvision (vanilla and magic -10%)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by lachimba (Post 2119369)
Player: Its a magic sense ergo doesn't require phyiscal organs

GM: Stop trying to make up crap to make your limitation into some kind of enhancement :P

Seriously, Darkvision is "Like vision, but you don't need light". That's the only thing it do. It doesn't let you see through particles, it doesn't let you see through walls, it doesn't let you see through thin cloth, and it doesn't let you see once your eyeballs are scooped out.

Other traits can upgrade your vision to do that, all Darkvision does is upgrade your vision so you ignore low light penalties. If your player's conception of how his power works involves more than "I can see in the dark", then what he has is a meta-trait composed of more than one advantage.

OR they have Scanning Sense (Para-Radar; Magical, -10%) rather than Darkvision, which I'm getting the impression is what they think they have.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lachimba (Post 2119369)
5. Does a Gorgon's flesh to stone work via Dark Vision?

Yes. If the player doesn't want that, they need to get Protected Sense. Or again, swap out for Para-Radar.

Anaraxes 08-27-2017 08:20 AM

Re: Darkvision (vanilla and magic -10%)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by lachimba (Post 2119369)
5. Does a Gorgon's flesh to stone work via Dark Vision?

Presumably in this case the Gorgon's ability is Sense-Based, which means that the target can be affected only if it can sense the Gorgon. (See it, usually.) Being able to see at all is actually disadvantageous in this case -- but that doesn't turn normal human vision into a point-granting Disad. Similarly, having extra senses to perceive the hideous Gorgon would be that much more disadvantageous. Having a lot of senses is a two-edged sword, even if it is a net Advantage because it benefits you more often and more strongly than it hurts you.

The fluff text for the ability should give you some ideas on how to adjudicate it. If your flash-bang grenade Affflicts stunning or blindness due to its visible-light flash, not being able to see in that spectrum might well make you immune, and being able to see in some other part of the spectrum might well leave you unaffected simply because the mundane grenade wasn't designed to affect that part of the spectrum. Note that that also presumes you can easily turn off your normal vision, which ordinary humans can't do. It's not the presence of another sense that helps; it's the absence of normal vision. If multiple sensory powers are important in the game then that might make the flash-bang ability cheaper. (Think of it as an Accessibility that affects fewer people: Only Those Without Other Senses).

So if Gorgons turn viewers into stone because they're just that ugly, being able to see them via any means might well be bad. If your Gorgons are less powerful -- say, you can safely view them in a mirror or polished shield, as it's only the direct sight that's deadly -- you might count other means of viewing as sufficiently distorted to be safe. Clairvoyance, for example, might not get you turned to stone -- or it might. That's really a GM call for how the Gorgon's work in his setting.

Kelly Pedersen 08-27-2017 08:41 AM

Re: Darkvision (vanilla and magic -10%)
 
I agree with the general thread consensus here that Darkvision and other sensory enhancements described as "vision", either in their names or descriptions (so, Infravision, Ultravision, Night Vision, etc.) are, by default, linked to your eyes, and count as sight for purposes of sense-based attacks that use sight as a channel. I would allow a "Separate Sense Organ" enhancement on most such abilities. That would mean the sense depends on a separate eye or other, similar organ. It would have the same basic limitations as an eye - it faces the same direction as your "normal" vision, it's easily crippled by damage, and it's subject to blinding by environmental hazards. This would be worth +5% if it's just another eye, an additional +5% if the sense organ isn't obviously an eye (and thus needs something like a Physiology roll to identify its function), and a final +5% if the sense counts as something else besides vision for purposes of Sense-Based attacks.

David Johnston2 08-27-2017 11:57 AM

Re: Darkvision (vanilla and magic -10%)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by lachimba (Post 2119369)
Player: Its a magic sense ergo doesn't require phyiscal organs


oh and now I remember what set it off.

5. Does a Gorgon's flesh to stone work via Dark Vision?

It is of course unsound to assume that a magic sense necessarily doesn't require physical organs any more than a winged dragon can fly without its wings. Sure the wings couldn't work without the magic but you still need the wings for the magic. There are reasons why Dark Vision exists as something separate from Para-Radar.

lachimba 08-27-2017 02:05 PM

Re: Darkvision (vanilla and magic -10%)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by David Johnston2 (Post 2119422)
It is of course unsound to assume that a magic sense necessarily doesn't require physical organs any more than a winged dragon can fly without its wings. Sure the wings couldn't work without the magic but you still need the wings for the magic. There are reasons why Dark Vision exists as something separate from Para-Radar.


Well flight (winged) explicitly tells you that it requires wings.


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