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Malfi 06-21-2020 05:22 AM

Alternative attributes, Supers and other stuff
 
So I was thinking how attributes could be used in a 400+ or even 1600+ supers campaign. I am mostly talking about strength, how would you price strength?
I would guess 5 points is the minimum since there are ways to make it dealing damage more effective like power blow and claws and stuff and at this point it becomes better than innate attack. No?
Would you allow super strength and damage reduction? Since we have cheaper striking/lifting strength and hp I could see these getting out of hand.

What's your opinion about other suggestions like more expensive fatigue and basic speed, cheaper independent move and stun points especially when combined with the rules in GURPS supers.

In general what do you think should be good limits to power talents and godlike extra effort?
Also there is a suggestion in Basic that super heroic types are expected to improve quickly, though this actually isn't the case for most comics, there is a short of genre where "Supers" keep increasing in power in a way where 2-3 cp per session may seem too few. What would be a good "improve quickly" scheme for awarding cp's? There was a short of suggestion from psionic campaigns I think, but maybe sth else?

Anders 06-21-2020 06:12 AM

Re: Alternative attributes, Supers and other stuff
 
What is the problem with the current pricing?

NineDaysDead 06-21-2020 06:15 AM

Re: Alternative attributes, Supers and other stuff
 
Firstly if you don't already have it, get Alternate Attributes

Quote:

Originally Posted by Malfi (Post 2329545)
So I was thinking how attributes could be used in a 400+ or even 1600+ supers campaign. I am mostly talking about strength, how would you price strength?
I would guess 5 points is the minimum since there are ways to make it dealing damage more effective like power blow and claws and stuff and at this point it becomes better than innate attack. No?
Would you allow super strength and damage reduction? Since we have cheaper striking/lifting strength and hp I could see these getting out of hand.

I'd use "Knowing Your Own Strength" from Pyramid 83

This means lift increases 10-fold every +10 to ST. So ST 30 has a Extra-Heavy Encumbrance of 10 tons and ST 40 has a Extra-Heavy Encumbrance of 100 tons, ST 50, 1,000 tons etc.

Looking at Alternate Attributes I'd set the cost of ST at between 5 to 2 points per level.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Malfi (Post 2329545)
What's your opinion about other suggestions like more expensive fatigue and basic speed, cheaper independent move and stun points especially when combined with the rules in GURPS supers.

Alternate Attributes discusses this. The cost change depends on what rules you are going to use.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Malfi (Post 2329545)
In general what do you think should be good limits to power talents and godlike extra effort?

What type of game are you going for? Cosmic or Street level?

Malfi 06-21-2020 06:55 AM

Re: Alternative attributes, Supers and other stuff
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by NineDaysDead (Post 2329548)
Firstly if you don't already have it, get Alternate Attributes



I'd use "Knowing Your Own Strength" from Pyramid 83

This means lift increases 10-fold every +10 to ST. So ST 30 has a Extra-Heavy Encumbrance of 10 tons and ST 40 has a Extra-Heavy Encumbrance of 100 tons, ST 50, 1,000 tons etc.

Looking at Alternate Attributes I'd set the cost of ST at between 5 to 2 points per level.

Alternate Attributes discusses this. The cost change depends on what rules you are going to use.

What type of game are you going for? Cosmic or Street level?


My second paragraph refers to changes for super suggested in Alternate Attributes. Maybe I should have made this clearer, but I think I deleted the reference when I edited my post.
I think Knowing your own strength could be usable, though it has the issue that lifting eventually overcomes striking strength stretching belivability and it doesn't fit very well with chi skills such as powerblow.
Type of game I guess begin from more powerful than the average human to world shaking. The scaling could mirror xian xia, litrpg or many shonen anime with supernatural aspects, hopefully with less sillyness.

Andreas 06-21-2020 06:57 AM

Re: Alternative attributes, Supers and other stuff
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Malfi (Post 2329545)
So I was thinking how attributes could be used in a 400+ or even 1600+ supers campaign. I am mostly talking about strength, how would you price strength?
I would guess 5 points is the minimum since there are ways to make it dealing damage more effective like power blow and claws and stuff and at this point it becomes better than innate attack. No?
Would you allow super strength and damage reduction? Since we have cheaper striking/lifting strength and hp I could see these getting out of hand.

Even at 10 points for strenght, super-strength enhancement makes strenght much better than innate attack at high point totals.

I think the main consideration here is if you want linear or exponential scaling of damage and defenses with cp spent. If you go for linear, remove super-strength, remove IT(DR), and probably lower the cost of ST.

If you go for exponential, mabye add a limitation to ST, can't use super-strength -50%, to make it less expensive for people who don't take advantage of super-strength.

Quote:

In general what do you think should be good limits to power talents and godlike extra effort?
I'm not sure of power talents need any limits. For goodlike extra effort I would probably just not use it at all (and perhaps limit normal extra effort for powers as well). It makes having more FP and faster FP recovery extremely powerful, and you could get stronger abilities which only be used some of the time in other ways as well (limited use, cost FP etc.).

Quote:

Also there is a suggestion in Basic that super heroic types are expected to improve quickly, though this actually isn't the case for most comics, there is a short of genre where "Supers" keep increasing in power in a way where 2-3 cp per session may seem too few. What would be a good "improve quickly" scheme for awarding cp's? There was a short of suggestion from psionic campaigns I think, but maybe sth else?
Other than the obvious alternative of just giving more than 3 cp, there is also the option of letting improvements mainly come from in-game reasons. For example if you attach a cybernetic arm, then your point total just increases, and if you switch minds with a wealthy person, then you have access to all that wealth (at least as long as it isn't discovered).

Refplace 06-21-2020 08:03 AM

Re: Alternative attributes, Supers and other stuff
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Malfi (Post 2329550)
I think Knowing your own strength could be usable, though it has the issue that lifting eventually overcomes striking strength stretching belivability and it doesn't fit very well with chi skills such as powerblow.

Powerblow is addressed in the KYOS article, it just adds ST rather than multiplying it.

Anders 06-21-2020 08:09 AM

Re: Alternative attributes, Supers and other stuff
 
To simulate "double ST with Powerblow", you quadruple Basic Lift, so that's +6 ST. "Triple ST" is +10.

I do agree that around ST 40 or so damage starts to get too low for believability. On the other hand, people in superhero comics survive blows from guys who can lift mountains, so it kind of fits the genre. You may want to triple or quadruple damage to inanimate objects to provide satisfying destruction of the environment.

nudj 06-21-2020 08:32 AM

Re: Alternative attributes, Supers and other stuff
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Malfi (Post 2329545)
So I was thinking how attributes could be used in a 400+ or even 1600+ supers campaign. I am mostly talking about strength, how would you price strength?
I would guess 5 points is the minimum since there are ways to make it dealing damage more effective like power blow and claws and stuff and at this point it becomes better than innate attack. No?

I think ST should be 5 pts per level period. Double it as a UB in low tech Fantasy where the GM is strictly controlling innate attack.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Malfi (Post 2329545)
Would you allow super strength

I don't like Super ST because there is no corresponding log progression for innate attack. I prefer Godlike Extra Effort + ST at 5 per level, since it puts all abilities (innate attack, TK, even DR) on the same scale. With 150 points for 10 Fatigue per second recovery + the rules example in Chinese Elemental Powers for skill based godlike extra effort, things can get things really powerful fast if you want M scale.

I'd still use Damage Reduction, although it's awkward.

I also like KYOS for the lift ST, but it needs expanded rules. You still need GEE for damage OR quadruple damage for inanimate objects like Anders suggests.



nudj

naloth 06-21-2020 05:06 PM

Re: Alternative attributes, Supers and other stuff
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by nudj (Post 2329557)
I also like KYOS for the lift ST, but it needs expanded rules. You still need GEE for damage OR quadruple damage for inanimate objects like Anders suggests.

Nah, just convert the ST/HP of items to the same (log) scale you're using for ST.

kirbwarrior 06-21-2020 09:31 PM

Re: Alternative attributes, Supers and other stuff
 
https://www.gamesdiner.com/rules-nug...r-cost-for-st/

TL:DR costs drop after level 20 and every 'step' of S/SR costs 50pts (going from 20 to 30, from 30 to 50, 50 to 70, 70 to 100, etc).

This has been my go to for years and is a much better solution to me than Super ST. I also apply it to all damage-based flat leveled traits such as IA, DR, etc. Namely, this lets ST be an actual choice for street-level supers and for very high powered supers who have to compete with other 600+ cost traits.

And this isn't just for supers. In regular campaigns, I'm fine with those few extra levels being cheaper and I don't think that ST50 is even equal in effectiveness to IQ20 (which would cost the same in this scheme). If 20+ ST is outside normal limits, there are both perks and Unusual Backgrounds for that (assuming I allow it as a GM).


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