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-   -   Question on 'Ramming' (http://forums.sjgames.com/showthread.php?t=152207)

Mack_JB 10-11-2017 09:32 AM

Question on 'Ramming'
 
I understand that an Ogre may only ram twice per turn (6E rule 6.01.1) -- my question though is an Ogre moving through hexes occupied by enemy Infantry.

For an Ogre with three movement points and multiple rows of Infantry in front of it, I've always done move into first hex, enemy reduced by one squad (3/1 becomes 2/1); move into second hex, that 3/1 becomes 2/1, move into third hex, and then that 3/1 become 2/1. End movement phase sitting on top of 2/1 Infantry.

In the video game, after the second infantry unit has been passed through, it won't allow you to move forward into the third unit, only sideways or backwards into clear hexes for your third movement point.

I suppose I've always seen "ramming" as being against vehicles, not Infantry, so I'm doing it wrong in the cardboard games.

GranitePenguin 10-11-2017 10:42 AM

Re: Question on 'Ramming'
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Mack_JB (Post 2127947)
I understand that an Ogre may only ram twice per turn (6E rule 6.01.1) -- my question though is an Ogre moving through hexes occupied by enemy Infantry.

For an Ogre with three movement points and multiple rows of Infantry in front of it, I've always done move into first hex, enemy reduced by one squad (3/1 becomes 2/1); move into second hex, that 3/1 becomes 2/1, move into third hex, and then that 3/1 become 2/1. End movement phase sitting on top of 2/1 Infantry.

In the video game, after the second infantry unit has been passed through, it won't allow you to move forward into the third unit, only sideways or backwards into clear hexes for your third movement point.

I suppose I've always seen "ramming" as being against vehicles, not Infantry, so I'm doing it wrong in the cardboard games.

You are correct; you have been doing it wrong. Remember in Ogre, "ramming" is both Armor and INF, and ramming INF is called "overrunning" (just to be as confusing as possible). In "classic" rules, you get only two "rams" regardless of what type. Also, an Ogre can't "ram" INF if it doesn't have any AP guns (6.06).

Ulzgoroth 10-12-2017 02:19 AM

Re: Question on 'Ramming'
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by GranitePenguin (Post 2127957)
You are correct; you have been doing it wrong. Remember in Ogre, "ramming" is both Armor and INF, and ramming INF is called "overrunning" (just to be as confusing as possible). In "classic" rules, you get only two "rams" regardless of what type. Also, an Ogre can't "ram" INF if it doesn't have any AP guns (6.06).

I see no such usage in the rulebook. Cite?

offsides 10-12-2017 07:58 AM

Re: Question on 'Ramming'
 
I believe they dropped that term with the O{D6}E rules, but it was section 5.04 (Infantry Overruns) in the earlier Ogre rules.

dwalend 10-12-2017 08:58 AM

Re: Question on 'Ramming'
 
I agree with Mack_JB's reading. If he's wrong it's errata. In ODE:

Quote:

6.01.1 Limit on ramming. An Ogre may ram no more than twice per turn, or one enemy Ogre per turn.
Quote:

6.06 Reducing infantry. An Ogre does not literally “ram” infantry, but any Ogre with AP weapons (or a Superheavy Tank) may move into an infantry hex as though the infantry were not there. If the Ogre/SHVY has any antipersonnel weapons left, the infantry unit is automatically reduced by one squad. This does not count as an “attack” for the AP weapons. An Ogre/SHVY in a hex with infantry may expend a movement point, stay in the same hex, and reduce the infantry again. When all its AP weapons are gone, an Ogre/SHVY can no longer reduce infantry in this way.
The two-ram limit only applies if 'not literally "ram"' ing is still somehow "ramming" . 'Literally' is one of those words usually best left out.

A fix could look like

Quote:

An Ogre with AP weapons (or a Superheavy Tank) may move into an infantry hex as though the infantry were not there. If the Ogre/SHVY has any antipersonnel weapons left, the infantry unit is automatically reduced by one squad. This does not count as an “attack” for the AP weapons, but does count against the limit of two rams.
or

Quote:

... This does not count as an “attack” for the AP weapons, nor does it count against the limit of two rams.
Can an Ogre that has rammed twice move into a third hex of INF? I think yes. I'd have to check that the online game got that detail right, but I think I saw it miss that.

(I have a short list of other nits with this rule, but usually I'll just use the overrun rules instead. Overruns are fun.)

Mack_JB 10-12-2017 09:19 AM

Re: Question on 'Ramming'
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by dwalend (Post 2128124)
Can an Ogre that has rammed twice move into a third hex of INF? I think yes. I'd have to check that the online game got that detail right, but I think I saw it miss that.

I've been polishing up my skills (and just having fun blowing up tanks) by playing the Ogre(s) in the classic Mk III and Mk V scenarios. I've regularly tried to move three hexes by simply rolling through infantry, and it only allows two per turn. The third movement point always points you towards clear terrain, or your movement phase just automatically ends if you are surrounded.

GranitePenguin 10-12-2017 09:23 AM

Re: Question on 'Ramming'
 
I agree it's sufficiently poorly worded to warrant errata, but I still think the intent is only two "rams" of infantry.

The implied meaning by it being in the section on ramming is that it should be treated as a ram; and subject to the ram limitation. It gets messy because of the effort made to explain how it should work when rolling over INF.

This gets even worse with the wording in 6.06 because it implies an Ogre can move into a hex with INF, even if it doesn't have any AP left, and roll through.

In general, the text around moving through an INF hex needs some significant work.

dwalend 10-12-2017 11:13 AM

Re: Question on 'Ramming'
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by GranitePenguin (Post 2128128)
This gets even worse with the wording in 6.06 because it implies an Ogre can move into a hex with INF, even if it doesn't have any AP left, and roll through.

It's not implied. It is stated:

Quote:

... any Ogre with AP weapons (or a Superheavy Tank) may move into an infantry hex as though the infantry were not there.
Quote:

In general, the text around moving through an INF hex needs some significant work.
We can probably fix this by replacing previous attempts to fix it with something more clear.

Do you think there's appetite for simplifying the ramming rules (which are supposed to be simpler than overrun rules) by dropping the limit on ogres ramming non-ogres?

I played without that limit for two decades. Having it rarely changes the way I play - because I keep some distance from healthy ogres no matter what. Fear of losing three tanks to ramming isn't more motivating than fear of losing two tanks to ramming. Prevent it by staying at range 2.

A commander engaging M2 INF vs an M3 ogre is already in dire straights. That INF is extremely unlikely to get a second shot.

A lone INF shouldn't be able to stop an ogre with an SB but no AP guns from entering a hex. A wall of INF shouldn't hinder that ogre's endgame. Said INF should not survive the experience.

I lack empathy for any fool commander who parks a HVY next to an M3 ogre, and two more HVYs in a neat path. He should watch all three tanks fall like dominos (not just two of them).

I don't think this little buff for ogres, especially the MkIV, changes the core game at all. It'd just remove some rarely-used paragraphs.

Steve Jackson 10-12-2017 11:44 AM

Re: Question on 'Ramming'
 
Intent: "Ramming" only means rams vs. armor units, not infantry. Only two rams per turn because the Ogre probably has to waste some time and movement getting close enough to the ram targets to actually hit them.

Reducing infantry is not a ram. It was treated as a ram in earlier versions of the video game but that was an error and has AFAIK been fixed. Reducing infantry just represents getting close enough to take a free shot with your AP, which is why AP is required for this to work.

Now, if we need to reword that for clarity this is a good time to be discussing it.

Thank you!

Mack_JB 10-12-2017 11:48 AM

Re: Question on 'Ramming'
 
Can't get much more "word of God" than that there!


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