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demonsbane 01-28-2011 06:14 AM

GURPS Powers: Divine Favor
 
Rejoice, my brothers! Our prayers have been answered with the release of GURPS Powers: Divine Favor!

Mailanka 01-28-2011 07:04 AM

Re: GURPS Powers: Divine Favor
 
I really liked this one, and I'm considering using it to replace clerical magic in Dungeon Fantasy. My only complaints so far is that the book focuses entirely on goody-two-shoes gods, but that's barely a quibble as the book gives me all the tools I need to make my own sets of divine powers. A slightly larger quibble is that I can't find the variation of Blessed in there that boosts your stats. I was kinda hoping to see what he did with that, or if that even needs to be covered by these (but he had other forms of Blessed, like the font, in the book).

Bruno 01-28-2011 09:25 AM

Re: GURPS Powers: Divine Favor
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Mailanka (Post 1113981)
I really liked this one, and I'm considering using it to replace clerical magic in Dungeon Fantasy.

Mrff rff mmmrfl? *spits out the PDF briefly*

Yeah, I'm officially making it an option for players in my game - replace PI, spells, and the powers from DF with Divine Favor instead. Or mix both, but that's going to take a stinkton of points, and neither system gives bonuses to the other so I don't recommend it for starting characters.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mailanka (Post 1113981)
My only complaints so far is that the book focuses entirely on goody-two-shoes gods, but that's barely a quibble as the book gives me all the tools I need to make my own sets of divine powers. A slightly larger quibble is that I can't find the variation of Blessed in there that boosts your stats. I was kinda hoping to see what he did with that, or if that even needs to be covered by these (but he had other forms of Blessed, like the font, in the book).

As a +5 to Strength and Climbing (plus one free reroll) only until you climb back up, and complete restoration of FP, was the example for a Neutral reaction when begging for generic help while hanging off a cliff over a Pit of Doom, it seems that it would be a pretty modest miracle.

dataweaver 01-28-2011 12:01 PM

Re: GURPS Powers: Divine Favor
 
One option that I'm considering for this: because they were originally adapted from the Improvement Through Study rules, I figure that it shouldn't be hard to adapt the Meditative Magic rules from GURPS Fantasy (pp.161-162) for use as the means for a paragon to acquire Learned Prayers: the easiest way would be to say that the "energy cost" to acquire a Learned Prayer via the Meditative Magic rules is 25 times the listed point cost. Simple, straightforward, and very much in keeping with the intended feel of Divine Favor.

Crakkerjakk 01-28-2011 12:32 PM

Re: GURPS Powers: Divine Favor
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Bruno (Post 1114026)
Yeah, I'm officially making it an option for players in my game - replace PI, spells, and the powers from DF with Divine Favor instead. Or mix both, but that's going to take a stinkton of points, and neither system gives bonuses to the other so I don't recommend it for starting characters.

Learned prayers seem like they might be a bit too powerful for the point costs, given you can do them as often as you want at no cost.

munin 01-28-2011 12:55 PM

Re: GURPS Powers: Divine Favor
 
Hmm. For learned prayers such as Confidence (p. 8) which have a "recharge" time, that recharge time seems only to apply to that learned prayer and not to the entire set of alternative abilities. Is that right?

Kromm 01-28-2011 01:00 PM

GURPS Powers: Divine Favor
 
I stand among men
Speaker and servant of gods
Divine spark in hand
Some hack
New on e23 this week is GURPS Powers: Divine Favor, by the suitably named Rev. Pee Kitty. Remember how GURPS Psionic Powers took all the complicated lessons of GURPS Powers and used them to build ready-made power frameworks for psionics? This supplement does the same for holy abilities the sort that part seas and smite the undead. It comes with all the trimmings, including rules for praying for spontaneous miracles, numerous fully worked set-piece abilities, several new variations on the Blessed advantage, thoughts on tying divine powers to priestly rank and clerical magic, and advice on such campaign-planning issues as "one god vs. many" and "good vs. evil." Whether your goal is to empower flashy Dungeon Fantasy clerics or to give a cult priest sinister gifts in a modern-day horror campaign, Divine Favor is like a gift from the gods.

B9anders 01-28-2011 01:23 PM

Re: GURPS Powers: Divine Favor
 
Kromm's been ninja'd!

Stone Dog 01-28-2011 01:29 PM

Re: GURPS Powers: Divine Favor
 
He is too busy bringing the awesome to worry about piddling details like who posted what. ;)

demonsbane 01-28-2011 01:44 PM

Re: GURPS Powers: Divine Favor
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by B9anders (Post 1114112)
Kromm's been ninja'd!

Yep. Maybe both threads can be merged?

Anders 01-28-2011 01:54 PM

Re: GURPS Powers: Divine Favor
 
Probably. Point don't really matter for general prayer, except to set what level of reaction roll is needed. So limitations should be less of a hassle as well.

Anyone else tinkering with Compartmentalized mind ("Only for prayers") to allow mroe than one prayer at once?

Stone Dog 01-28-2011 02:29 PM

Re: GURPS Powers: Divine Favor
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Asta Kask (Post 1114130)
Anyone else tinkering with Compartmentalized mind ("Only for prayers") to allow mroe than one prayer at once?

So God can get irritated at you twice as fast?

Bruno 01-28-2011 02:34 PM

Re: GURPS Powers: Divine Favor
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Crakkerjakk (Post 1114097)
Learned prayers seem like they might be a bit too powerful for the point costs, given you can do them as often as you want at no cost.

You can only do one Learned Prayer at a time, and while you're doing those, you can't do any other prayers at all.

This makes them Not Cheap At All.

A One Prayer Cleric, who does Protection from Evil (Enhanced) all the time, has spent not only 7 points for the Prayer, but also 35 points for the Divine Favor - instead of just 33 points for the basic True Faith Reliable Turning combo.

PK 01-28-2011 03:11 PM

Re: GURPS Powers: Divine Favor
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Mailanka (Post 1113981)
I really liked this one

Glad that everyone who's picked it up has enjoyed it so much! I prayed for such a response . . . :)

Quote:

I'm considering using it to replace clerical magic in Dungeon Fantasy.
That's one of the explicit things I wanted it to be able to handle -- hence the "dungeon delving" flavor to a few of the miracles (e.g., Smite).

Other important genres that I had in mind include the Deadlands setting (this is perfect for Blessed characters -- and note that cursed lands resist Consecrate Ground with effective HT equal to (Fear Level * 4)) and Monster Hunters (and yes, there are guidelines in MH1 for using Divine Favor instead of <FNORD> if you'd prefer to do so). But frankly, there shouldn't be many settings (featuring at least one interventionist god) that Divine Favor can't fit into.

Quote:

My only complaints so far is that the book focuses entirely on goody-two-shoes gods, but that's barely a quibble as the book gives me all the tools I need to make my own sets of divine powers.
I thought about trying to get really expansive with it, but then decided that it was important to keep it as simple and focused as possible. IMO, a true take on "Unholy Favor" could be its own supplement. (Note to writers: Hint, hint . . .)

Quote:

A slightly larger quibble is that I can't find the variation of Blessed in there that boosts your stats. I was kinda hoping to see what he did with that, or if that even needs to be covered by these (but he had other forms of Blessed, like the font, in the book).
Yeah, I know that's kind of weird leaving Heroic Feats out of the loop, but hear me out on this:

I played with a few different builds of Heroic Feats and simply could not come up with two miracles (a normal + an Enhanced) that felt like the definitive ones. For example, I considered doing a 10 point (boost one attribute) and a 30 point (boost all three), then thought about doing a 30 points (+1d to all three) and a 60-point (+2d), and then several more. In the end, I decided that the "best" combination of the two would depend on the GM.

So then it occurs to me that if I leave Heroic Feats as an obvious omission, it gives the reader/GM an easy opening to build his very first custom Learned Prayer! In other words, this is an advantage for which it is simultaneously (A) very easy to build a prayer from, yet (B) something everyone will want to take a slightly different approach to. When I realized that, I decided to consciously leave it off. So, while that may or may not have been a smart move, it was at least a willing one. :)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bruno (Post 1114142)
You can only do one Learned Prayer at a time, and while you're doing those, you can't do any other prayers at all.

This makes them Not Cheap At All.

Exactly. It's important not to overlook that -- a learned prayer comes with some amazing benefits, but also one huge special drawback.

Quote:

A One Prayer Cleric, who does Protection from Evil (Enhanced) all the time, has spent not only 7 points for the Prayer, but also 35 points for the Divine Favor - instead of just 33 points for the basic True Faith Reliable Turning combo.
QFT. The learned prayers are cheap, but only because you can't buy them until you've sunk a lot of points into Divine Favor. You cannot just look at the Learned Prayer Cost for each and think of that as the "real cost"! If you want to part the seas, it doesn't cost you 32 points to do so -- it costs you 202 points! Because these use the Alternative Advantage rules, this is one case where the prerequisite cost is a balancing factor.

Mailanka 01-28-2011 04:47 PM

Re: GURPS Powers: Divine Favor
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Rev. Pee Kitty (Post 1114154)
Glad that everyone who's picked it up has enjoyed it so much! I prayed for such a response . . . :)

One thing I must say I'm enjoying about your takes on psi and divine powers is how differently you tackle them. I've always enjoyed games where different "power sources" felt different, and I suspect you feel the same way, looking at your work. Now, one might not agree with your exact methods, but that's not really the point: You show us how it's done, and you'll certainly inspire people to go about giving their powers their own spin too.

Quote:

I thought about trying to get really expansive with it, but then decided that it was important to keep it as simple and focused as possible. IMO, a true take on "Unholy Favor" could be its own supplement. (Note to writers: Hint, hint . . .)
Like I said, hardly a quibble. If you included two kinds of gods, then you would increase the page count by something like 50%, and then those of us who prefer shamans or more Greek/D&D style gods would be clamoring for Beauty divine powers or War divine powers etc. I can certainly see the logic of picking a focus and sticking with it.

Quote:

Yeah, I know that's kind of weird leaving Heroic Feats out of the loop, but hear me out on this:

I played with a few different builds of Heroic Feats and simply could not come up with two miracles (a normal + an Enhanced) that felt like the definitive ones. For example, I considered doing a 10 point (boost one attribute) and a 30 point (boost all three), then thought about doing a 30 points (+1d to all three) and a 60-point (+2d), and then several more. In the end, I decided that the "best" combination of the two would depend on the GM.

So then it occurs to me that if I leave Heroic Feats as an obvious omission, it gives the reader/GM an easy opening to build his very first custom Learned Prayer! In other words, this is an advantage for which it is simultaneously (A) very easy to build a prayer from, yet (B) something everyone will want to take a slightly different approach to. When I realized that, I decided to consciously leave it off. So, while that may or may not have been a smart move, it was at least a willing one. :)
My first thought was actually "He doesn't like Heroic Feats. Maybe he knows something I don't." So thank you for the clarification!

demonsbane 01-28-2011 08:25 PM

Re: GURPS Powers: Divine Favor
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Rev. Pee Kitty (Post 1114154)
Glad that everyone who's picked it up has enjoyed it so much!

It's a very good work. When I saw that GURPS Thaumatology wasn't covering "divine magic" handled through reaction rolls, I started to wait for something like this. Because its angle, GURPS Powers: Divine Favor remembers me a bit of FUDGE Miracles . . . which is good!

A further comment, almost a quibble, is that in Divine Favor Modifiers > Reaction Roll Modifiers (p.5), in the context of situational modifiers, there's "a serious situation" portrayed with people being in a life threatening situation; this is OK, but I miss the inclusion of threats to the god's plans in the category of "serious situations", too, in which the god would be more willing to act than usual: is far from uncommon for an "interventionist deity" to have goals, plans and even some especially dear objects and places that the god wants to protect, like important relics and shrines (*). Instead, the notion of a deity with "plans" going beyond just the welfare of people is only mentioned in the glum context of the box Good and Evil, Narrow Paths and Slippery Slopes (p. 12), that is mostly about unholy paragons and dark masters.
. . .I'm aware of that this is in part a matter of assumptions, and I can come with my own ones, but still, this sort of thing is very characteristic of the type of god mainly focused in GURPS Powers: Divine Favor.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mailanka (Post 1113981)
My only complaints so far is that the book focuses entirely on goody-two-shoes gods, but that's barely a quibble as the book gives me all the tools I need to make my own sets of divine powers. (. . .)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rev. Pee Kitty (Post 1114154)
I thought about trying to get really expansive with it, but then decided that it was important to keep it as simple and focused as possible. (. . .)

Another comment, that is a straightforward praise, is that I'm glad to see books like this, because most things in fiction and RPGs are too strongly inclined towards the "negative numinous", as we can see in the increasingly strong fascination towards dark fantasy, maltheism and the horror genre. To my mind, the specific focus of this book is refreshing, helping a bit with "the balance of alignments" in the GURPS line, so to speak. (Yes, I know that GURPS Horror is the next hardcover after GURPS Low-Tech).


(*) For a biblical (deuterocanonical) example, answering the prayers of the high priest Onias, God actively protects the treasures of the Temple of Jerusalem -the "footstool" of his presence- smiting Heliodorus. (2 Maccabees 3:21-28)

safisher 01-29-2011 04:22 AM

Re: GURPS Powers: Divine Favor
 
This is a great product. Had been hoping for something like this after seeing the treatment in Fantasy. One question: how would you handle a prayer that creates a blessed or consecrated item, or even a permanent holy might object? Lots of potential for item creation through prayer.

dataweaver 01-29-2011 04:48 AM

Re: GURPS Powers: Divine Favor
 
I'd handle it as a General or Specific Prayer. The blessed or consecrated item would be be paid for using Thaumatology's Devotional Enchantment rules (p.54) - in particular, Creating Character Points. Indeed, I'd rule that Divine Favor would be an acceptable substitute for Very Blessed for the purposes of Meditation, Holiness, or Study (p.53) in general.

Anders 01-29-2011 07:32 AM

Re: GURPS Powers: Divine Favor
 
Would you allow for characters to buy prayers at full cost, in order to use them simultaneously with other prayers?

dataweaver 01-29-2011 09:27 AM

Re: GURPS Powers: Divine Favor
 
I don't see why not. If someone wants to dump that many points into Learned Prayers, more power to them!

safisher 01-29-2011 01:30 PM

Re: GURPS Powers: Divine Favor
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by dataweaver (Post 1114409)
I'd handle it as a General or Specific Prayer. The blessed or consecrated item would be be paid for using Thaumatology's Devotional Enchantment rules (p.54) - in particular, Creating Character Points. Indeed, I'd rule that Divine Favor would be an acceptable substitute for Very Blessed for the purposes of Meditation, Holiness, or Study (p.53) in general.

I'll have to take a look at those solutions. I'd like to have some kind of crafting magic rules that interact Divine Power, allowing a militant religious order to produce everything from slightly blessed items, like the DP mentions, to powerful artifacts with earth-shaking, army destroying ability.

PK 01-29-2011 01:30 PM

Re: GURPS Powers: Divine Favor
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by dataweaver (Post 1114409)
I'd handle it as a General or Specific Prayer. The blessed or consecrated item would be be paid for using Thaumatology's Devotional Enchantment rules (p.54) - in particular, Creating Character Points. Indeed, I'd rule that Divine Favor would be an acceptable substitute for Very Blessed for the purposes of Meditation, Holiness, or Study (p.53) in general.

I could get behind this, sure. Devotional Enchantment is basically the preferred way for religious types to make items without using spells.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Asta Kask (Post 1114440)
Would you allow for characters to buy prayers at full cost, in order to use them simultaneously with other prayers?

Absolutely. In fact, if you check the wording on Golem, it expressly allows this; there's no reason not to do the same with any other learned prayer.

Anders 01-29-2011 01:33 PM

Re: GURPS Powers: Divine Favor
 
How about using Power Investment as a Prayer Talent - giving a bonus to the Reaction Roll?

dataweaver 01-29-2011 01:45 PM

Re: GURPS Powers: Divine Favor
 
GURPS Powers puts Patrons on the list of Inappropriate Abilities for the purpose of receiving bonuses from a Power Talent; and Divine Favor is basically a dressed up Patron. So no, I don't think that it would be appropriate to apply Power Investiture to Divine Favor.

roguebfl 01-29-2011 03:12 PM

Re: GURPS Powers: Divine Favor
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by dataweaver (Post 1114607)
GURPS Powers puts Patrons on the list of Inappropriate Abilities for the purpose of receiving bonuses from a Power Talent; and Divine Favor is basically a dressed up Patron. So no, I don't think that it would be appropriate to apply Power Investiture to Divine Favor.

How ever GURPS Fantasy digress and use Power Investeure as a modifier of a Patron Reaction Roll in Man Proposed, God Disposes

dataweaver 01-29-2011 04:18 PM

Re: GURPS Powers: Divine Favor
 
It doesn't in my copy. Clerical Investment, Religous Rank, and True Faith, yes; but not Power Investiture.

Tyneras 01-29-2011 04:36 PM

Re: GURPS Powers: Divine Favor
 
I'm in love!

I want to combine Sermonize with whatever we get from GURPS Social Engineering.

The thing I love most about this is how it makes i much easier to point to a difference between a mage and a cleric. For too long, a cleric was basically "a mage with healing spells".

roguebfl 01-29-2011 04:50 PM

Re: GURPS Powers: Divine Favor
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by dataweaver (Post 1114716)
It doesn't in my copy. Clerical Investment, Religous Rank, and True Faith, yes; but not Power Investiture.

My bad, I misremembered Clerical Investment with Power Investiture.

lexington 01-29-2011 05:04 PM

Re: GURPS Powers: Divine Favor
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyneras (Post 1114730)
I'm in love!

I want to combine Sermonize with whatever we get from GURPS Social Engineering.

Ceremonial prayers?

dataweaver 01-29-2011 05:32 PM

Re: GURPS Powers: Divine Favor
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by lexington (Post 1114740)
Ceremonial prayers?

*HISS!* Begone, foul creature! The whole point behind Divine Favor is that it isn't a matter of ceremonies; it's about establishing and maintaining a positive relationship with your God.

Incidentally, this means that a properly played cleric is going to be praying not just for fire support, but also for guidance: "let me know what you want me to do."

Tyneras 01-29-2011 05:36 PM

Re: GURPS Powers: Divine Favor
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by lexington (Post 1114740)
Ceremonial prayers?

Already covered under Petition Roll Modifiers on page 5.

I was thinking more about using the extra charisma to fuel my rise to power, or raise an army to fight the bad guys, or create public support for something that my god supports.

edit: or maybe just convince the faithful to raise funds to improve the church.

b-dog 01-29-2011 05:53 PM

Re: GURPS Powers: Divine Favor
 
One thing I must say about this book and what I like about it is that it really tries to be close to a Judeo-Christian concept of a cleric. The Dungeon Fantasy cleric was modeled on the Judeo-Christian cleric from vampire movies so it is really cool that a character with divine favor would really come close to this instead of just a wizard with healing spells. I think that a DF template would be quite useful for divine favor clerics too. I would also love it if there were templates with info for Christian clercs for use with DF as this is truly where the original DF cleric came from instead of some religion where the cleric worships Glorp the Good. The same would be true of a Knights Templar template for the holy warrior.

PK 01-29-2011 07:23 PM

Re: GURPS Powers: Divine Favor
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Asta Kask (Post 1114597)
How about using Power Investment as a Prayer Talent - giving a bonus to the Reaction Roll?

Sure, that's in there. See Power and Privilege (p. 7), which gives the GM a few different ways to make things like Power Investiture or Religious Rank make a difference.

PK 01-29-2011 07:28 PM

Re: GURPS Powers: Divine Favor
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by b-dog (Post 1114764)
One thing I must say about this book and what I like about it is that it really tries to be close to a Judeo-Christian concept of a cleric.

I can't disagree with that, but I'd like to point out that it's not modeled on just the Judeo-Christian concept of a cleric! In particular, the moral code is wide open -- you just have to take at least -10 points in "religious disadvantages," which can model literally any faith. And the miracles are drawn from Islam, Hindu, Native American, and several other beliefs. I actually did a fair bit of research when coming up with the miracles that felt right, and only a portion of that research was Biblical.

tl;dr version: Divine Favor tries to be close to real-world concepts of a holy cleric, but not that of any one particular religion.

Steven Marsh 01-29-2011 07:38 PM

Re: GURPS Powers: Divine Favor
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Rev. Pee Kitty (Post 1114796)
tl;dr version: Divine Favor tries to be close to real-world concepts of a holy cleric, but not that of any one particular religion.

For this reason, I'd also like to note that it was really tricky to come up with a web blurb for this item that avoided use of "God" or any other "named names" . . . :-)

Tyneras 01-29-2011 08:20 PM

Re: GURPS Powers: Divine Favor
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Steven Marsh (Post 1114801)
For this reason, I'd also like to note that it was really tricky to come up with a web blurb for this item that avoided use of "God" or any other "named names" . . . :-)

Was "deity" taken? As far as I know, that's both generic and gender neutral.

b-dog 01-29-2011 10:12 PM

Re: GURPS Powers: Divine Favor
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Rev. Pee Kitty (Post 1114796)
I can't disagree with that, but I'd like to point out that it's not modeled on just the Judeo-Christian concept of a cleric! In particular, the moral code is wide open -- you just have to take at least -10 points in "religious disadvantages," which can model literally any faith. And the miracles are drawn from Islam, Hindu, Native American, and several other beliefs. I actually did a fair bit of research when coming up with the miracles that felt right, and only a portion of that research was Biblical.

tl;dr version: Divine Favor tries to be close to real-world concepts of a holy cleric, but not that of any one particular religion.

But to me what makes it cool is that it is close a real world cleric. A cleric of Islam, Hindu, and Christian religions would all be fun to play. Using cross to turn a vampire is better than using a sacred tire iron of some made up religion for the game atmosphere to me. Plus the holy items found while dungeon delving are cool if they are from some real world religion. Somehow GURPS Banestorm, Cabal and Innomine were able to take real world religions and add them to the gamecworld and not create a huge uproar while almost all dungeon delving games avoid them like the plague. I know DF is supposed to be devoid of any setting assumptions but most of the stuff is from real world myths and legends with a coat of paint covering it. Instead of having the evil cleric worship the demon lord Chroing the Nasty just go for the real thing and have the evil cleric worship the Devil.

tg_ambro 01-29-2011 10:29 PM

Re: GURPS Powers: Divine Favor
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by b-dog (Post 1114855)
. . . Instead of having the evil cleric worship the demon lord Chroing the Nasty just go for the real thing and have the evil cleric worship the Devil.

Actually, the Devil is frequently refered to throughout the DF books. Kind funny of when you think about it.

b-dog 01-29-2011 10:54 PM

Re: GURPS Powers: Divine Favor
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by tg_ambro (Post 1114859)
Actually, the Devil is frequently refered to throughout the DF books. Kind funny of when you think about it.

That is one thing that gives me hope for this series.

lachimba 01-30-2011 07:08 AM

Re: GURPS Powers: Divine Favor
 
Any good?

I am thinking of procrastinating and not buying it for a little while, but it looks like an inevitable purchase to me.

Anders 01-30-2011 07:16 AM

Re: GURPS Powers: Divine Favor
 
I liked it, so it must be good.

demonsbane 01-30-2011 07:51 AM

Re: GURPS Powers: Divine Favor
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by dataweaver (Post 1114716)
It doesn't in my copy. Clerical Investment, Religous Rank, and True Faith, yes; but not Power Investiture.

Nonetheless, the mentioned section of GURPS Fantasy by roquebfl, Man Proposes, God Disposes (p.F148) is good and suitable by being related to the approach of GURPS Powers: Divine Favor, along with Prayer (p.F149), Sacred Places (p.F149) and Miracles (p.F151). However, the section on Sacrificial Magic in p.F165 could have been linked, in some way, with the reaction roll mechanics for prayers. The same is true for GURPS Thaumatology in its section about Sacrifices (p.T54-58).
. . .Along the same lines, GURPS Thaumatology adds the Power Investiture level, along with +2 for both True Faith and Blessed, for a holy person trying to sanctify a space by making a reaction roll to the deity, which "involves a great deal of prayer, appealing directly to the deity for his blessing." (p.T69)

Quote:

Originally Posted by demonsbane (Post 1114275)
I miss the inclusion of threats to the god's plans in the category of "serious situations", too, in which the god would be more willing to act than usual: is far from uncommon for an "interventionist deity" to have goals, plans and even some especially dear objects and places that the god wants to protect, like important relics and shrines

Since a very small part of this was very slightly addressed in GURPS Fantasy and GURPS Thaumatology . . .

"-3 if on cursed ground (unless it is cursed because of pollution and the prayer is for vengeance on the polluters!)" (GURPS Fantasy, p.148)

"The GM may apply a modifier from -4 to +4 if he feels that the reasons for the plea are especially weak or convincing." (GURPS Thaumatology, p.69)

. . . I expected at least something a bit more developed in GURPS Powers: Divine Favor.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyneras (Post 1114730)
I want to combine Sermonize with whatever we get from GURPS Social Engineering.

That is going to work, I assure it: you might have a Bernard of Clairvaux, who, due to his powers of persuasion, made his biographer say that "he was the terror of mothers and wives; friends were afraid of seeing him to approach their friends."

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyneras (Post 1114730)
The thing I love most about this is how it makes i much easier to point to a difference between a mage and a cleric. For too long, a cleric was basically "a mage with healing spells".

I agree.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rev. Pee Kitty (Post 1114796)
(. . .) I'd like to point out that it's not modeled on just the Judeo-Christian concept of a cleric!

Yes, that is enough clear just by reading the PDF.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kromm (Post 1114109)
(. . .) Whether your goal is to empower flashy Dungeon Fantasy clerics (. . .)

Since you are saying this, I want to add that a succinct mention of GURPS Dungeon Fantasy in this PDF would have been interesting.

PK 01-30-2011 03:46 PM

Re: GURPS Powers: Divine Favor
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by b-dog (Post 1114855)
But to me what makes it cool is that it is close a real world cleric. A cleric of Islam, Hindu, and Christian religions would all be fun to play.

And that's exactly what I was saying. I tried to make this as "realistic" a take on holy powers as possible, from the perspective of people who believe in flagrant miracles (of any real-world faith).

Quote:

Originally Posted by lachimba (Post 1114966)
Any good?

Well, I certainly think so. :)

(Actually, in all seriousness, I am rather proud of this little book. I think the crunchiness and flavor can both stand up against any other similar supplement. I'm even in the middle of using Lulu to make a printed copy for myself -- made a cover and everything.)

Langy 01-30-2011 05:44 PM

Re: GURPS Powers: Divine Favor
 
I rather like this book. I just bought it and am almost finished building a Cleric with it for a Dungeon Fantasy game. I think he'll be quite excellent in-play, and will definitely feel different from any mages/etc we'll have, which I think is a very important thing in my opinion. It's pretty easy to turn a DF Cleric into a Divine-Favorified version, too - just knock him back a few IQ levels, toss out all his spells and Power Investiture, and run with it.

b-dog 01-30-2011 08:37 PM

Re: GURPS Powers: Divine Favor
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Rev. Pee Kitty (Post 1115209)
And that's exactly what I was saying. I tried to make this as "realistic" a take on holy powers as possible, from the perspective of people who believe in flagrant miracles (of any real-world faith).

I thhink you have started a dangerous trend now that you have tried to make clerics seem "realistic," now we will need some revisions on other spell casting classes like witches, druids and different types of wizards.

dataweaver 01-31-2011 12:14 AM

Re: GURPS Powers: Divine Favor
 
"Started"? Fans have been looking for this sort of thing as far back as the publication of GURPS Voodoo: the Shadow War. The Ritual Magic system (now Path/Book Magic) was originally created with this in mind.

I'm still hoping for a Thaumatology supplement that does for Path/Book Magic what Martial Arts did for personal combat.

sir_pudding 01-31-2011 02:48 AM

Re: GURPS Powers: Divine Favor
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by b-dog (Post 1115328)
witches,

GURPS Thaumatology's Spirit Mediated Magic
Quote:

druids
Historical druids are specifically addressed in the Roma Arcana setting GURPS Fantasy
Quote:

An and different types of wizards.
Isn't that the entire point of 30% of Fantasy and all of Thaumatology?

demonsbane 01-31-2011 02:52 AM

Re: GURPS Powers: Divine Favor
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by b-dog (Post 1115328)
now we will need some revisions on other spell casting classes like (. . .) druids

Thaumatology already addressed "druidic magic", updating to GURPS 4e the rules from GURPS Celtic Myth.

On the other hand, mythological druids in the Irish texts sometimes were so powerful that their magic could be handled with magic as powers, too. But under that angle, they weren't very different than gods (some Celtic gods were druids), demigods, and in some way such approach isn't really absent in Celtic Myth -remember the relations of this book with GURPS Supers.

Quote:

Originally Posted by b-dog (Post 1115328)
(. . .) we will need some revisions on other spell casting classes like witches, (. . .) and different types of wizards.

Isn't that already covered? Pick Middle Ages remnants of real world grimoires and you'll see formulas for specific effects, conjurations and ceremonies, which to my mind are in line with the "standard" GURPS Magic approach of spells as skills. Thaumatology updated even the magic system of GURPS Cabal, for those who want a more modern and recognizable occultist flavour.

Quote:

Originally Posted by dataweaver (Post 1115392)
"Started"? (. . .)

I agree. Good point.

Quote:

Originally Posted by dataweaver (Post 1115392)
"Started"? (. . .) I'm still hoping for a Thaumatology supplement that does for Path/Book Magic what Martial Arts did for personal combat.

For different approaches, definitely Path/Book magic could be further developed.

sir_pudding 01-31-2011 02:56 AM

Re: GURPS Powers: Divine Favor
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by demonsbane (Post 1115450)
For different approaches, definitely Path/Book magic could be further developed.

I'd love to see more Books, especially more mundane texts as secret wisdom like the example Deeper Principia.

demonsbane 01-31-2011 02:58 AM

Re: GURPS Powers: Divine Favor
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Langy (Post 1115263)
I rather like this book. I just bought it and am almost finished building a Cleric with it for a Dungeon Fantasy game. I think he'll be quite excellent in-play, and will definitely feel different from any mages/etc we'll have, which I think is a very important thing in my opinion. It's pretty easy to turn a DF Cleric into a Divine-Favorified version, too - just knock him back a few IQ levels, toss out all his spells and Power Investiture, and run with it.

Good to know.

Nonetheless, despite the coolness of this book and of the miracles as powers approach, I wouldn't be really interested in substituting the current and "standard" approach of clerical magic as spells for these kinds of gaming styles.

I'd love to see optional ways and ideas for tweaking Dungeon Fantasy templates, but not so much in substituting the way in which it's working currently. (Yes, I like magic as spells and spells as skills.)

Quote:

Originally Posted by sir_pudding (Post 1115448)
GURPS Thaumatology's Spirit Mediated Magic
Historical druids are specifically addressed in the Roma Arcana setting GURPS Fantasy Isn't that the entire point of 30% of Fantasy and all of Thaumatology?

This.

Langy 01-31-2011 03:04 AM

Re: GURPS Powers: Divine Favor
 
I'm fine with Magic as Spells/Spells as Skills in general, but I think it's a real disservice to make *every* type of magic identical to all the others. I mean, what's really the difference between clerical and wizardly magic in base DF? The spell lists. That's the entirety of the difference.

With Divine Favor, you really get the feel that you're actually a priest of some god and not just another wizard with a club instead of a staff. The idea isn't that spells-as-skills is bad, it's that making two supposedly completely different magic systems be functionally identical is silly.

demonsbane 01-31-2011 03:13 AM

Re: GURPS Powers: Divine Favor
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Langy (Post 1115456)
(. . .) I mean, what's really the difference between clerical and wizardly magic in base DF? The spell lists. That's the entirety of the difference.

For many games, such difference can be enough. But yes, I understand your point and in part, I agree.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Langy (Post 1115456)
(. . .) making two supposedly completely different magic systems be functionally identical is silly.

To my mind, that's not necessarily so. And not every fantasy or dungeon fantasy cleric should be automatically regarded as a "full fledged 'Prophet'".

lachimba 01-31-2011 03:57 AM

Re: GURPS Powers: Divine Favor
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Rev. Pee Kitty (Post 1115209)
. I think the crunchiness and flavor can both stand up against any other similar supplement. I'm even in the middle of using Lulu to make a printed copy for myself -- made a cover and everything.)

glad to hear that you think so.

The crunchiness of Psionic Powers was really useful as a practical example of the Powers system which is my major hope for this PDF.

PK 01-31-2011 04:30 AM

Re: GURPS Powers: Divine Favor
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by lachimba (Post 1115471)
The crunchiness of Psionic Powers was really useful as a practical example of the Powers system which is my major hope for this PDF.

Well, the best thing I can say about Divine Favor is that I don't think it resembles Psionic Powers in any way other than usefulness. (That is, it stands as a fully worked, easy-to-use power system, but it has a unique flavor that's designed specifically to emulate "godly" power, as opposed to any other power or a generic approach.)

Anders 01-31-2011 04:40 AM

Re: GURPS Powers: Divine Favor
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by sir_pudding (Post 1115452)
I'd love to see more Books, especially more mundane texts as secret wisdom like the example Deeper Principia.

Anyone care to write up the Kinsey reports?

roguebfl 01-31-2011 09:35 AM

Re: GURPS Powers: Divine Favor
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by demonsbane (Post 1115455)
Good to know.

Nonetheless, despite the coolness of this book and of the miracles as powers approach, I wouldn't be really interested in substituting the current and "standard" approach of clerical magic as spells for these kinds of gaming styles.

I'd love to see optional ways and ideas for tweaking Dungeon Fantasy templates, but not so much in substituting the way in which it's working currently. (Yes, I like magic as spells and spells as skills.)

Well they you might be interested in how I build Clerics:

Modular Abilities: Divine Inspiration (15 points) (Pact -50%, Physical +100%, Requres Reaction Roll -5%, Trigger: Hold Holy sysbol -20%)[83]; Signature Gear (Holy Symbol) [1] True Faith (Turning +65%) [25]

Disadvantages: Fanaticism (Put the Undead to Rest)* [-15]; Pacifism (Cannot Harm Innosents)* [-10]; Sense of Duty (Innsosents)* [-10]; Vow (Never refuse a request for aid)* [-15];

Skills: Religious Ritual

*Part of the Pact

Divine Favor has a Similar feel, but a different approach.

sir_pudding 01-31-2011 11:13 AM

Re: GURPS Powers: Divine Favor
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Asta Kask (Post 1115495)
Anyone care to write up the Kinsey reports?

Interesting, it's past my divergence point, but my world might have something similar. It might resemble the Floating Palaces (or whatever that was called), though, I could just reskin that.

dataweaver 01-31-2011 01:22 PM

Re: GURPS Powers: Divine Favor
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by sir_pudding (Post 1115448)
GURPS Thaumatology's Spirit Mediated Magic

Historical druids are specifically addressed in the Roma Arcana setting

GURPS Fantasy

Isn't that the entire point of 30% of Fantasy and all of Thaumatology?

The issue isn't so much whether or not it can be done as whether or not a prebuilt example of doing it should be published. After all, Psionics can be done without Psionic Powers; but that supplement presents psionics in such a way that you can drop them into your campaign with very little prep work. Divine Favor does something similar with Divine powers; the question is whether supplements that provide prebuilt systems for witches, druids, etc. would be worth the effort of publishing.

johndallman 01-31-2011 02:44 PM

Re: GURPS Powers: Divine Favor
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Rev. Pee Kitty (Post 1114154)
The learned prayers are cheap, but only because you can't buy them until you've sunk a lot of points into Divine Favor.

You know, the Learned Prayer mechanics could also work for a secular magic system, of a particular kind.

The D&D campaign I run occasionally has an unusual historical feature: magic done with standardised spells is comparatively new, only a century or so old. I decided on this because my players include a few who have invented so many spells that the idea that the standard list has been in use for a long time unchanged just isn't plausible.

I never had any mechanics for the historical system, largely because I never needed them. It was based on the idea of individuals having a natural talent with some particular kind of magic, variable in both breadth and power: people who were both broad and powerful were vanishingly rare.

Using a quality that's mechanically analogous to Divine Favour, called something like "Magical Talent (<type>)" with variable cost by breadth, the rules for building Learned Prayers for particular effects, and even the rules for just requesting unspecified miracles as generic applications of talent, would make building such a system fairly straightforward. I don't think I'm going to embark on this immediately, but it's an interesting idea.

All this derives, of course, from this book being an extended example in using GURPS Powers alternative abilities. Indeed, a lot of the stuff you've been writing is examples of how to use Powers thoroughly. Which is a very fine thing.

dataweaver 01-31-2011 03:53 PM

Re: GURPS Powers: Divine Favor
 
johndallman: you might consider looking at Realm-based Syntactic Magic from Thaumatology as the "Magical Talent <type>" side of things, with individual spells that have been mastered (to the point that they can be cast instinctively) being purchased as Alternate Abilities to the most appropriate Realm.

RyanW 01-31-2011 07:05 PM

Re: GURPS Powers: Divine Favor
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by dataweaver (Post 1115891)
johndallman: you might consider looking at Realm-based Syntactic Magic from Thaumatology as the "Magical Talent <type>" side of things, with individual spells that have been mastered (to the point that they can be cast instinctively) being purchased as Alternate Abilities to the most appropriate Realm.

That almost perfectly fills a need I've had for some time. I will have to think on this.

demonsbane 02-01-2011 07:19 AM

Re: GURPS Powers: Divine Favor
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by roguebfl (Post 1115568)
Well they you might be interested in how I build Clerics:

Interesting build.

Quote:

Originally Posted by roguebfl (Post 1115568)
Divine Favor has a Similar feel, but a different approach.

Yeah, that's one of the strengths of the toolkit that is GURPS Powers.

johndallman 02-01-2011 11:10 AM

Re: GURPS Powers: Divine Favor
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by dataweaver (Post 1115891)
you might consider looking at Realm-based Syntactic Magic from Thaumatology as the "Magical Talent <type>" side of things

Unfortunately, that doesn't seem to readily handle the variable breadth of the talents I'm trying to model. I'd need a fairly complicated heirarchy of categories as far as I can see. Just eyeballing it as a variable cost of talent by breadth seems much easier.

dataweaver 02-01-2011 05:41 PM

Re: GURPS Powers: Divine Favor
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by johndallman (Post 1116321)
Unfortunately, that doesn't seem to readily handle the variable breadth of the talents I'm trying to model. I'd need a fairly complicated heirarchy of categories as far as I can see. Just eyeballing it as a variable cost of talent by breadth seems much easier.

My suggestion was less about which Realms you would use and more about what rules you would use for the "Magical Talent <type>" trait: instead of the Availability Check and Reaction Roll mechanic that Divine Favor uses (which obviously carries a strong implication that you're dealing with a person of some sort), use the "Flexible Magic" rules from Thaumatology (specifically, Performing the Working, p.191) when your style of magic is more impersonal in its nature. Go ahead and assign any given mage a single Realm, and eyeball that Realm's cost by breadth; Thaumatology's method of assigning costs by counting Realms of roughly equal size is merely a suggestion, anyway.

Langy 02-02-2011 11:08 AM

Re: GURPS Powers: Divine Favor
 
Here's a first-go at a template for a Divine Favor-ified Priest character.

Quote:

Priest

Attributes: ST 12 [20]; DX 12 [40]; IQ 12 [40]; HT 12 [20].

Secondary Characteristics: Damage 1d-1/1d+2; BL 29 lbs.; HP 12 [0]; Will 14 [10]; Per 12 [0]; FP 12 [0]; Basic Speed 6.00 [0]; Basic Move 6 [0].

Advantages: Clerical Investment [5] and Divine Favor 8 [45]. • 60 points in Learned Prayers • A further 20 points chosen from among additional Learned Prayers or Divine Favor +1 [10], ST +1 or +2 [10 or 20], DX +1 [20], IQ +1 [20], HT +1 or +2 [10 or 20], Will +1 to +4 [5/level], FP +1 to +6 [3/level], Fearlessness [2/level] or Unfazeable [15], Healer 1 or 2 [10 or 20], Languages (any) [2-6/language], Luck [15], Mind Shield [4/level], Power Investiture (Divine Favor) 1 or 2 [10 or 20], Resistant to Disease (+3) or (+8) [3 or 5], or Signature Gear [Varies].

Disadvantages: One of Honesty (12) [-10], Sense of Duty (Coreligionists) [-10], or Vow (No edged weapons) [-10]. • Another -15 points chosen from among those traits or Disciplines of Faith (Ritualism or Mysticism) [-5 or -10], Fanaticism [-15], Intolerance (“Evil” religions) or (All other religions) [-5 or -10], Vow (Chastity or Vegetarianism) [-5], or Wealth (Struggling or Poor) [-10 or -15]. • A further -25 points chosen from either of the two previous lists or Charitable [-15*], Compulsive Generosity [-5*] or Miserliness [-10*], Gluttony [-5*], Overconfidence [-5*], Overweight [-1] or Fat [-3], Selfless [-5*], Sense of Duty (Adventuring companions) [-5], Stubbornness [-5], Truthfulness [-5*], or Weirdness Magnet [-15].

Primary Skills: Theology and Religious Ritual, both (H) IQ [4]-12; and Exorcism (H) Will [4]-14. • One of Throwing (A) DX+1 [4]-13; or Sling (H) DX [4]-12. • One of these three melee skills packages:
1. One of Axe/Mace or Broadsword, both (A) DX+2 [8]-14, and Shield (E) DX+2 [4]-14.
2. Flail (H) DX+1 [8]-13 and Shield (E) DX+2 [4]-14.
3. Staff (A) DX+3 [12]-15.

Secondary Skills: First Aid (E) IQ [1]-12; Hidden Lore (Demons, Spirits, or Undead), Occultism, Public Speaking, and Teaching, all (A) IQ-1 [1]-11; and Meditation (H) Will-2 [1]-12.

Background Skills: Five of Climbing or Stealth, both (A) DX-1 [1]-11; Gesture, Panhandling, or Savoir-Faire (High Society), all (E) IQ [1]-12; Research or Writing, both (A) IQ-1 [1]-11; Hiking (A) HT-1 [1]-11; Scrounging (E) Per [1]-12; or Observation or Search, both (A) Per-1 [1]-11.

* Multiplied for self-control number; see p. B120.
The main difference between this template and the core DF Cleric is that the Cleric uses spells and is more closely a 'medic'-type character, while the Priest is lacking many of the Cleric's medical skills and uses Divine Favor instead of magic. With an unlimited point budget, I'd want to give the Priest 14 IQ (same as the Cleric) and the same medical-type skills as the Cleric, or at least two levels of Healer so his medical skills would be at the same level, but I think this character would be much more effective with those points in Learned Prayers rather than medic-type skills, especially since he can take Lay On Hands as a Learned Prayer along with Flesh Wounds, allowing him to heal others at a very steady rate compared with a Cleric. I wish that Lay On Hands (Enhanced) wasn't anywhere near as expensive as it is, though - it would have been perfect for a DF priest, but you'd need to about double the amount of points in Divine Favor abilities for it to be available, and that's just not a good idea on a DF character's point budget.

Any comments/questions/concerns? Anyone else been fiddling away and trying to build a suitable DF template for a Divine Favor cleric?

sir_pudding 02-02-2011 12:23 PM

Re: GURPS Powers: Divine Favor
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Langy (Post 1116969)
I wish that Lay On Hands (Enhanced) wasn't anywhere near as expensive as it is, though - it would have been perfect for a DF priest, but you'd need to about double the amount of points in Divine Favor abilities for it to be available, and that's just not a good idea on a DF character's point budget.

Works as a Power-Up though.

gmjasongurps 02-03-2011 08:46 PM

Re: GURPS Powers: Divine Favor
 
is the Confidence Learned Prayer priced incorrectly?

It says its based off of Ridiculous Luck but that you can use it every 30 minutes and the math is wrong.

Should it really be based on Extraordinary Luck [30] instead?

PK 02-04-2011 02:29 AM

Re: GURPS Powers: Divine Favor
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by gmjasongurps (Post 1117889)
is the Confidence Learned Prayer [...] really based on Extraordinary Luck [30] instead?

Yes, that's a silly mistake on my part. "Ridiculous" should, of course, read "Extraordinary." If you'd be so kind as to submit that to errata@sjgames.com, I'd appreciate it.

Langy 02-04-2011 04:00 AM

Re: GURPS Powers: Divine Favor
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Rev. Pee Kitty (Post 1117978)
Yes, that's a silly mistake on my part. "Ridiculous" should, of course, read "Extraordinary." If you'd be so kind as to submit that to errata@sjgames.com, I'd appreciate it.

Surely that's not just a silly mistake - it's a ridiculous one.

PK 02-04-2011 04:47 PM

Re: GURPS Powers: Divine Favor
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Langy (Post 1117993)
Surely that's not just a silly mistake - it's a ridiculous one.

Extraordinarily so.

demonsbane 02-04-2011 07:11 PM

Re: GURPS Powers: Divine Favor
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Langy (Post 1117993)
Surely that's not just a silly mistake - it's a ridiculous one.

No, it's more than that: it's a funny one.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rev. Pee Kitty (Post 1118376)
Extraordinarily so.

LOL, this is going to run in circles.

[Sorry, I'm highly sensitive to naive puns]

lachimba 02-08-2011 06:57 AM

Re: GURPS Powers: Divine Favor
 
yeah it is pretty good.

I really like having one more worked example to compare to psionics. (but maybe a sample character as per PP would have have been nice)


Here looking forward to the other 'powers' books on the list.

Peter Knutsen 02-08-2011 09:02 AM

Re: GURPS Powers: Divine Favor
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by b-dog (Post 1114855)
But to me what makes it cool is that it is close a real world cleric. A cleric of Islam, Hindu, and Christian religions would all be fun to play. Using cross to turn a vampire is better than using a sacred tire iron of some made up religion for the game atmosphere to me. Plus the holy items found while dungeon delving are cool if they are from some real world religion. Somehow GURPS Banestorm, Cabal and Innomine were able to take real world religions and add them to the gamecworld and not create a huge uproar while almost all dungeon delving games avoid them like the plague. I know DF is supposed to be devoid of any setting assumptions but most of the stuff is from real world myths and legends with a coat of paint covering it. Instead of having the evil cleric worship the demon lord Chroing the Nasty just go for the real thing and have the evil cleric worship the Devil.

If you want inspiration for using real-world religions in fantasy genre roleplaying gaming, check out Quest FRP, either v2.1 or v2.0. It's a freeware RPG system, and you should still be able to find those older versions on the Internet somewhat. From v3 onwards the real-world religons were dropped and everything got genericized, because a few people got offented at a honest attempt to simulate various mythologies.

Peter Knutsen 02-08-2011 09:08 AM

Re: GURPS Powers: Divine Favor
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by demonsbane (Post 1114979)
Nonetheless, the mentioned section of GURPS Fantasy by roquebfl, Man Proposes, God Disposes (p.F148) is good and suitable by being related to the approach of GURPS Powers: Divine Favor, along with Prayer (p.F149), Sacred Places (p.F149) and Miracles (p.F151). However, the section on Sacrificial Magic in p.F165 could have been linked, in some way, with the reaction roll mechanics for prayers. The same is true for GURPS Thaumatology in its section about Sacrifices (p.T54-58).

Yes.

The whole prayer thing is problematic, given that some historical or pre-historical religions had no tradition of prayer whatsoever, but instead used sacrifices (and other equally non-prayer-like rituals) to attempt to communicate with the gods.

It would be a mistake to try to use GURPS Divine Favor to simulate some of those religons, e.g. the prehistoric Norse one; they're much better handled in other ways (Powers, or more likely something similar to GURPS Psionics Powers, using Religious Ritual and Poetry as control skills - I think that could be made to work in GURPS).

Still, it would have been nice to have rules for sacrifices that tied in with Divine Favor, for GMs who want to create ahistrical mix-and-match religions that use both prayers and sacrifices (and I'm not even sure if that is 100% ahistorical... didn't Judaism at one point have prayer and sacrifice simultaneously?.

Peter Knutsen 02-08-2011 09:11 AM

Re: GURPS Powers: Divine Favor
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Rev. Pee Kitty (Post 1115209)
And that's exactly what I was saying. I tried to make this as "realistic" a take on holy powers as possible, from the perspective of people who believe in flagrant miracles (of any real-world faith).

What would your advice be, to someone who prefers his miracles much subtler? Can GURPS Divine Favor be adapted to that?

Clearly., the Learned Prayers can just be toned down a lot (to give smaller bonuses), which lovers their point cost, but what about the core cost of the Patron? How should that be changed?

I'm thinking one possibility would be to ask how the Patron would be Limited if the result was capped at Good and can never be better. I think that would be a reasonable fit for my preference.

Peter Knutsen 02-08-2011 09:15 AM

Re: GURPS Powers: Divine Favor
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by b-dog (Post 1115328)
I thhink you have started a dangerous trend now that you have tried to make clerics seem "realistic," now we will need some revisions on other spell casting classes like witches, druids and different types of wizards.

Druids, in particular, since they were a core class in most versions of AD&D/D&D.

It's just a question of dumping the spells and going more Powers, though, so a supplement fixing up the Druid would boil down to a long list of lovingly tailored Powers.

One minor problem would be whether it should be a D&D-shaped druid for Dungeon Fantasy, or a much more historically and mythologically authentic druid for use in serious historical fantasy. A bigger supplement could do both, but it doesn't seem that SJ Games operates that way.

RyanW 02-08-2011 01:18 PM

Re: GURPS Powers: Divine Favor
 
I just noticed an oddity. The cost for Patron comes up to 57 before taking into account frequency of appearance. However, that comes out to 29, 57, 114, and 171 for the standard frequencies of appearance. Divine Favor "rounds to the nearest 5 points" but gives 25, 55, 110, and 170. I assume this was a conscious decision to get a steadily progressing incremental cost.

PK 02-08-2011 01:23 PM

Re: GURPS Powers: Divine Favor
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter Knutsen (Post 1119994)
What would your advice be, to someone who prefers his miracles much subtler? Can GURPS Divine Favor be adapted to that?

To that I answer, "It's built with GURPS!" That is, it can be adapted to anything. :)

Quote:

Clearly., the Learned Prayers can just be toned down a lot (to give smaller bonuses), which lovers their point cost, but what about the core cost of the Patron? How should that be changed?

I'm thinking one possibility would be to ask how the Patron would be Limited if the result was capped at Good and can never be better. I think that would be a reasonable fit for my preference.
Hmm, good question. Off the top of my head, that's basically the equivalent of moving down the Patron list -- that is, you're slowly moving from "true god" to "limited manifestation of a true god" to "limited manifestation of a minor god" when it comes to power level. I'd want to keep it simple, using -20% increments (since Divine Favor is divisible by 5). All considered, off the top of my head, I'd use something like:

Limited Manifestation: For whatever reason, your god cannot bring His full power to bear on our material plane. For game purposes, this caps the maximum effective reaction that you can roll and the strength of the learned prayers you can obtain. Limited Manifestation, Very Good is -20%; Good is -40%; and Neutral is -60%. This limitation only applies to the cost of Divine Favor -- not to any learned prayers!

This way, the GM could allow a weak version of Divine Favor for a more realistic, subtle game. I could see a preacher with Divine Favor 9 (Limited Manifestation, Neutral, -60%) [22] and several learned prayers, all only minor blessings. That limitation might be worth more, but at the same time, I'd hate to make it too cheap to be able to easily get your god's attention, even if His actions are limited!

PK 02-08-2011 01:31 PM

Re: GURPS Powers: Divine Favor
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by RyanW (Post 1120111)
I just noticed an oddity. The cost for Patron comes up to 57 before taking into account frequency of appearance. However, that comes out to 29, 57, 114, and 171 for the standard frequencies of appearance. Divine Favor "rounds to the nearest 5 points" but gives 25, 55, 110, and 170. I assume this was a conscious decision to get a steadily progressing incremental cost.

Sort of. I turned the existing FOA modifiers into an equation (a while ago -- don't have it anymore), used that to get the new values for each FOA (which included obtaining new, slightly-different values for the canonical FOA breakpoints), and then rounded those to the nearest 5 points. So there's a bit of a double-adjustment going on here.

Anyway, don't sweat small differences too much, here. Divine Favor is a new, standalone advantage, not a worked example/ability -- which is why I didn't give an actual breakdown and statistics line for it. Think of it as "inspired by the Patron advantage with these modifiers," if you prefer. :)

vitruvian 02-08-2011 01:42 PM

Re: GURPS Powers: Divine Favor
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter Knutsen (Post 1119990)
Yes.

The whole prayer thing is problematic, given that some historical or pre-historical religions had no tradition of prayer whatsoever, but instead used sacrifices (and other equally non-prayer-like rituals) to attempt to communicate with the gods.

It would be a mistake to try to use GURPS Divine Favor to simulate some of those religons, e.g. the prehistoric Norse one; they're much better handled in other ways (Powers, or more likely something similar to GURPS Psionics Powers, using Religious Ritual and Poetry as control skills - I think that could be made to work in GURPS).

Still, it would have been nice to have rules for sacrifices that tied in with Divine Favor, for GMs who want to create ahistrical mix-and-match religions that use both prayers and sacrifices (and I'm not even sure if that is 100% ahistorical... didn't Judaism at one point have prayer and sacrifice simultaneously?.

While sacrifice rules would certainly be a nice addition, I'm not sure it's true that these historical religions never prayed to or invoked their gods without an accompanying sacrifice, or believed that you couldn't communicate with the gods without their aid. It was just that the gods were far more likely to listen to and especially grant your requests with a sacrifice, or even just a promise of one.


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