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-   -   [RPM] Mind Control (http://forums.sjgames.com/showthread.php?t=151950)

Scolop 09-24-2017 05:57 PM

[RPM] Mind Control
 
I'm trying to figure out how to do total mind control with Ritual Path Magic. According to Path of Mind's description (p. 12), Greater Control Mind is classic "mind control". So you'd think that, to get someone to be your loyal slave, prepared to jump off a cliff should you ask for it, it should be enough to create a ritual looking at least like this:

Typical Casting: Greater Control Mind (5) + Duration, 10 minutes (1). 18 energy (63).

That's way too cheap a ritual to get you in full control of a being. I think it can't be right, even more so because we have a couple of mind control rituals in the grimoire. One such ritual is Truthteller (p. 51): the subject is compelled to tell the truth. Way "simpler" than full mind control, and it requires 54 energy (of course, it has longer duration and a range modifier compared to the example above).

This made me realize that a total mind control ritual would require some advantages/disadvantages. I was thinking of Ally with the Minion modifier or something like that, but I couldn't work it out.

How would you guys do it? I was hoping that I could flesh out this kind of mind control and make it hard to cast, because mind control can easily ruin a plot.

By the way, looking at Truthteller, the spell gives the subject a couple of disadvantages with No Self-Control Roll. Does the disadvantage have, like, 3 times the listed cost? I could reverse-engineer it to find out, but I'd also like to know if there's a book mentioning this, because I can't find it in the Basic Set.

Shostak 09-24-2017 08:17 PM

Re: [RPM] Mind Control
 
Using the Enslave spell from Magic as a starting point, you could build it like this:

Sense Mind [2] + Greater Control Mind [5] + Altered Traits (Disadvantage: Slave Mentality) [8] + Duration: 1 day [7]. Greater effects 1 [x3]. 66 Energy.

It still needs a range modifier if you plan to cast it on someone farther than immediately adjacent.

Andreas 09-25-2017 05:20 AM

Re: [RPM] Mind Control
 
Wouldn't you also need to add some energy to account for the weigth of the subject?

As I understand it, Slave Mentality would make them inclined to obey anyone. Mind control similiar to the Enslave spell should probably use Reprogrammable instead. Enslave also does not have the side effects of Slave Mentality.

Nereidalbel 09-25-2017 09:25 AM

Re: [RPM] Mind Control
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Andreas (Post 2125017)
Wouldn't you also need to add some energy to account for the weigth of the subject?

As I understand it, Slave Mentality would make them inclined to obey anyone. Mind control similiar to the Enslave spell should probably use Reprogrammable instead. Enslave also does not have the side effects of Slave Mentality.

Slave Mentality assumes you are "owned" by somebody, and only people your Master have authorized can give you orders. Otherwise, you get stuck in an endless loop of "Kill Bob!" "No, kill John!" No, kill Bob!"

Scolop 09-25-2017 09:26 AM

Re: [RPM] Mind Control
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Shostak (Post 2124966)
Using the Enslave spell from Magic as a starting point, you could build it like this:

Sense Mind [2] + Greater Control Mind [5] + Altered Traits (Disadvantage: Slave Mentality) [8] + Duration: 1 day [7]. Greater effects 1 [x3]. 66 Energy.

It still needs a range modifier if you plan to cast it on someone farther than immediately adjacent.

I had thought about using Slave Mentality, but it didn't look like it was enough to cover the effects. Andreas' suggestion of adding Reprogrammable complements it, though. I guess I would throw a 2-point Sense of Duty in too. I don't get why it should have a Lesser Sense Mind effect.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andreas (Post 2125017)
Wouldn't you also need to add some energy to account for the weigth of the subject?

As I understand it, Slave Mentality would make them inclined to obey anyone. Mind control similiar to the Enslave spell should probably use Reprogrammable instead. Enslave also does not have the side effects of Slave Mentality.

You don't need to account for subject weight when casting Mind rituals. Thanks for the suggestion, by the way!

For now, the ritual would look like this:

Typical Casting: Greater Control Mind (5) + Altered Traits, Reprogrammable, Sense of Duty (Caster) and Slave Mentality (11) + Duration, 10 minutes (1) + Range, 2 yards (0). 51 energy (173).

Still quite cheap for a simple and expected "game breaker", I'd say.

Shostak 09-25-2017 09:49 AM

Re: [RPM] Mind Control
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Scolop (Post 2125075)
I don't get why it should have a Lesser Sense Mind effect.

The Lesser Sense Mind is to establish telepathic connection for giving commands as per the Enslave spell. You could do without it.

Shostak 09-25-2017 09:58 AM

Re: [RPM] Mind Control
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Scolop (Post 2125075)
Still quite cheap for a simple and expected "game breaker", I'd say.

Unless I'm mistaken, it is still resisted, so just successfully gathering energy and casting does not make this a sure thing. But, yes, it could be a very powerful ritual. Instead of the telepathic control, you could insist on having Greater Create Mind in there to create a mind shard of the caster to command the victim, instead of the Lesser Sense Mind for telepathic communications. This bumps up the cost with both a higher Spell Effects cost and a higher Greater Effects Multiplier.

Christopher R. Rice 09-25-2017 10:06 AM

Re: [RPM] Mind Control
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Scolop (Post 2124951)
I'm trying to figure out how to do total mind control with Ritual Path Magic. According to Path of Mind's description (p. 12), Greater Control Mind is classic "mind control". So you'd think that, to get someone to be your loyal slave, prepared to jump off a cliff should you ask for it, it should be enough to create a ritual looking at least like this:

Typical Casting: Greater Control Mind (5) + Duration, 10 minutes (1). 18 energy (63).

That's way too cheap a ritual to get you in full control of a being. I think it can't be right, even more so because we have a couple of mind control rituals in the grimoire. One such ritual is Truthteller (p. 51): the subject is compelled to tell the truth. Way "simpler" than full mind control, and it requires 54 energy (of course, it has longer duration and a range modifier compared to the example above).

This made me realize that a total mind control ritual would require some advantages/disadvantages. I was thinking of Ally with the Minion modifier or something like that, but I couldn't work it out.

How would you guys do it? I was hoping that I could flesh out this kind of mind control and make it hard to cast, because mind control can easily ruin a plot.

By the way, looking at Truthteller, the spell gives the subject a couple of disadvantages with No Self-Control Roll. Does the disadvantage have, like, 3 times the listed cost? I could reverse-engineer it to find out, but I'd also like to know if there's a book mentioning this, because I can't find it in the Basic Set.

I (and others) toyed with some ideas in this thread.

One thing you may be overlooking here is that done this way it requires you to make a Concentrate maneuver to give new commands. This is similiar to how you can use Greater Control Matter to TK a car - but you need to spend an action to move it about. You'd need to add another Greater Control effect to "hand it off."

Andreas 09-27-2017 11:13 AM

Re: [RPM] Mind Control
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Nereidalbel (Post 2125074)
Slave Mentality assumes you are "owned" by somebody, and only people your Master have authorized can give you orders. Otherwise, you get stuck in an endless loop of "Kill Bob!" "No, kill John!" No, kill Bob!"

The description in the Basic Set does not seem to support this interpretation. The part about having to obey others says

"you automatically fail any Will roll to assert yourself or resist social influence except in circumstances where the GM rules that success might be possible, in
which case you roll at -6"

"Any Will roll", not just those caused by a specific person. Getting stuck in a loop in such a situation seems entirely appropriate given that.

Bruno 09-28-2017 05:27 PM

Re: [RPM] Mind Control
 
Slave Mentality is definitely the disadvantage of being so easily influenced everyone can influence you.

Mindless obedience to one person is a Constant Duty (probably Involuntary, possibly Extremely Hazardous).


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