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-   -   It would be nice to have some AD&D style demons and devils (http://forums.sjgames.com/showthread.php?t=151898)

b-dog 09-20-2017 07:30 PM

It would be nice to have some AD&D style demons and devils
 
I have bought the DFRPG when it was a kickstarter. So far I think it is done well but one thing I would like to have would be to have some AD&D style demons. The DF demons are ok but the AD&D style demons were much more powerful. For example the toxifier is just a one trick pony while even the lowest demons had nasty powers and the ability to gate other demons in. The peshkali is pretty neat but a Type V Demon from AD&D has powers, psionics, gate ability and magic resistance. Plus they had cool amulets too. The demon princes of AD&D were really awesome but I am sure they are copywrited. But the regular demons could be done with the DFRPG without much trouble. The Type 1 was a vulture humanoid demon, the Type 2 was a toad humanoid demon, and so on. Anyway, I think when you come from AD&D into DF one thing stands out and that is the demons are a lot lamer not to mention that there are no devils or daemons either.

D10 09-20-2017 10:41 PM

Re: It would be nice to have some AD&D style demons and devils
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by b-dog (Post 2124277)
demons

I actually think theres great potential in some monster oriented supplement that gives us challenges that are not supposed to be overcome by new players, something to aspire to, as well as a whole spectrum of threads under it, locations, items, plots, new spells, perks, etc. Maybe angels as well, and improve the holy and unholy archetypes, etc.

I dont know, maybe its too clichê, but hey, its DF!

Kromm 09-21-2017 09:02 AM

Re: It would be nice to have some AD&D style demons and devils
 
Please remember that the Dungeon Fantasy Roleplaying Game box is an intro. The included monsters are meant to be useful when starting a campaign, not to challenge PCs at sky-high power levels. The two adventures developed for the Kickstarter indicate the general tenor of challenges expected.

I agree that 250-point delvers are powerful. The templates in GURPS Dungeon Fantasy 15: Henchmen were designed to do double duty as templates for adventurers who are just starting out, and it pegs the "zero" of "zero to hero" at 125 points. The Dungeon Fantasy Roleplaying Game assumes the 125- to 250-point career arc happened sometime in the past, and aims to cover a second phase of equal scope, or from 250 to 375 points.

Now it's difficult to compare the Dungeon Fantasy Roleplaying Game or GURPS to AD&D, but I'd say 250-point delvers are around halfway between level 1 and the level after which no new HD are gained – level 9-11 in most cases. That's something like level 5-6. It's sloppy math, but I'd place "level 1" at around 125 points and "level 9-11" at around 375 points. I've often seen people say things like 100 points + 25 points/level, which gives 125 points at level 1, 250 points at level 6, and 375 points at level 11.

Serious demons, devils, etc. in AD&D were aimed toward level 9+ characters. Actual princes and lords were barely fair for level 14+ heroes. Thus, we're talking about monsters that would show up once people reach the 325- to 450-point range in the Dungeon Fantasy Roleplaying Game. In other words, stuff that mostly happens outside the top end of what the box covers.

So . . . There's definitely room for such challenges. However, that's all in the future.

b-dog 09-21-2017 10:26 AM

Re: It would be nice to have some AD&D style demons and devils
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Kromm (Post 2124375)
Please remember that the Dungeon Fantasy Roleplaying Game box is an intro. The included monsters are meant to be useful when starting a campaign, not to challenge PCs at sky-high power levels. The two adventures developed for the Kickstarter indicate the general tenor of challenges expected.

I agree that 250-point delvers are powerful. The templates in GURPS Dungeon Fantasy 15: Henchmen were designed to do double duty as templates for adventurers who are just starting out, and it pegs the "zero" of "zero to hero" at 125 points. The Dungeon Fantasy Roleplaying Game assumes the 125- to 250-point career arc happened sometime in the past, and aims to cover a second phase of equal scope, or from 250 to 375 points.

Now it's difficult to compare the Dungeon Fantasy Roleplaying Game or GURPS to AD&D, but I'd say 250-point delvers are around halfway between level 1 and the level after which no new HD are gained – level 9-11 in most cases. That's something like level 5-6. It's sloppy math, but I'd place "level 1" at around 125 points and "level 9-11" at around 375 points. I've often seen people say things like 100 points + 25 points/level, which gives 125 points at level 1, 250 points at level 6, and 375 points at level 11.

Serious demons, devils, etc. in AD&D were aimed toward level 9+ characters. Actual princes and lords were barely fair for level 14+ heroes. Thus, we're talking about monsters that would show up once people reach the 325- to 450-point range in the Dungeon Fantasy Roleplaying Game. In other words, stuff that mostly happens outside the top end of what the box covers.

So . . . There's definitely room for such challenges. However, that's all in the future.

Hopefully there are more books about demons because they are a major bad guy to fight. I like demons to have a lot of options as far as powers too. I do like the AD&D split between demons and devils, maybe the split might be between the fallen who were once angels but were cast into Hell (devils) and those malign beings that arose from the Abyss and sort of were created out of pure evil (demons).

Gnomasz 09-21-2017 11:00 AM

Re: It would be nice to have some AD&D style demons and devils
 
Well, you've got elder things in DF, for wicked creatures other than demons. It's not like D&D, but you could draw tons of inspiration from WoW.

Pseudonym 09-21-2017 11:32 AM

Re: It would be nice to have some AD&D style demons and devils
 
Monster Hunter bestiaries are meant for like 400 point characters in contemporary times, you could borrow a few of those for high level encounters, just change any guns (which a lot of monsters don't actually have) to cool gnomish gadgetry. I think they are closer to templates though of a monster type than a finished monster though. EG, there are a few strong demons (and random roll charts to give them cool extras) but it doesn't immediately feel like a named entity like President Amy or Great Marquis Forneus; those personal touches are up to the GM.

Doing things like creating a morphologically sound demon (eg Forneus prefers the shape of a man, so nothing weird like extra heads and arms) and then giving appropriate special abilities (EG: for Forneus, Rapier Wit (Words of Power) or powerful mind control to demonstrate his ability to "make one beloved by his foes" or his acumen that allows him to "give men the understanding and knowledge of many tongues.") pulls the package together, now you just let the delvers figure out how to defeat or bypass his 29 legions and storm his castle.

b-dog 09-21-2017 11:49 AM

Re: It would be nice to have some AD&D style demons and devils
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Gnomasz (Post 2124404)
Well, you've got elder things in DF, for wicked creatures other than demons. It's not like D&D, but you could draw tons of inspiration from WoW.

But I think of Elder Things as being in the Prime Material Plane (although shunted or hiding in other dimensions of it) while demons and devils are from other planes.

shadedmagus 09-21-2017 12:15 PM

Re: It would be nice to have some AD&D style demons and devils
 
I don't know how you feel about fan conversions, b-dog, but there are a few sites that try to replicate the "feel" of DnD monsters using GURPS values. I like this one, personally - they have a few of the classic monsters such as barbed devils and balors. Might be something to use as a reference to roll your own, if you like.

I agree with the general sentiment that I would love to see some high-level content for DFRPG, so I'm really hoping it does well. I've already put the word out among some friends and I'll be hitting up the FLGS to see if they'll carry it.

Rasputin 09-21-2017 12:49 PM

Re: It would be nice to have some AD&D style demons and devils
 
Y'know, b-dog, why don't you write up some AD&D-style demons and devils? I recently decided to put some work where my mouth went, and now have a whole bunch (37 at last count, plus maybe a one-page article updating 3e golems that I haven't written yet since I don't know how SJG would feel about a would-be Pyramid freelancer poaching one of its older products) of monsters I'm writing. As long as you don't make a succubus, you won't be stepping on my toes at all. (I have little interest in the AD&D cosmology, including the demon/devil Blood War. They're all evil and we kill them so why bother with the differences between them is my take on them.)

That you've never done so before shouldn't stop you from trying this time, b-dog. Monsters aren't terribly hard to write.

Kromm 09-21-2017 01:21 PM

Re: It would be nice to have some AD&D style demons and devils
 
"Demon vs. devil" is a D&D invention. The distinction qualifies as theirs in the legal sense, so you're never going to see it in GURPS or the Dungeon Fantasy Roleplaying Game. It doesn't have support in folklore or mythology, which means we'd be on very shaky ground adopting it, because we'd have nothing in the public domain to point to as our source.

The distinction between "entity indigenous to Hell" and "soul trapped in Hell and turned into something awful" is another matter. For sure, damned souls of former mortals aren't the same thing as bad guys that came into being on another plane of existence and never did a hitch as a mortal. That distinction has a lot more support in myth and folklore, and could be fun to explore in future works!

Finally, Elder Things aren't material. They aren't extradimensional in the usual sense, either. They are strictly speaking outside the concept of dimensions. I'm not partial to the D&D cosmology, but using that as our example: if the Ethereal Plane (meaning all the Ethereal Planes) surrounds the Prime and connects it to the Inner Planes, and the Astral Plane surrounds all that and connects it to the Outer Planes, then Elder Things lurk in whatever surrounds all that – what some D&D works call the Far Realm or simply Outside.


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