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-   -   A Challenger Appears! Green versus Red (http://forums.sjgames.com/showthread.php?t=160351)

ericthered 02-19-2019 10:24 AM

Re: A Challenger Appears! Green versus Red
 
rolled HIW, and succeeded.



Yes, that FP wasn't the one that drops stats. I checked before I kicked.



I saved my step for retreating.

Plane 02-20-2019 10:25 AM

Re: A Challenger Appears! Green versus Red
 
Backtracing (I should note my AP more regularly) I was left at 3/12 AP 9/12 FP after the crazy Move and Attack, for now I guess I will take another AOD:Double and use my free step to enter Close range with you. Either you attack me, or I can possibly get some AP back.

1) I like this because by not attacking you, you basically lose your free step and can't retreat further

2) I forgot to specify which brand of AOD last turn! Your kick missing avoided that awkwardness. In the future, I would say "Double" is a good default to assume for AOD if someone doesn't specify either Increased Dodge or Increased Parry.

3) If someone didn't specify AOA then we should try and catch that in the moment, but that's easier to notice since you know it's not Determined if they don't add the +4 to hit, but they should still specify if it is a "Double" or a "Strong" before rolling.

ericthered 02-21-2019 09:32 AM

Re: A Challenger Appears! Green versus Red
 
I miss my kick. Burned 2 AP.

Plane 02-24-2019 08:02 AM

Re: A Challenger Appears! Green versus Red
 
You're down to 2/10 AP, and 7/10 FP I think

I rolled an 8, which is under 11, so I successfully recover 1 AP, increasing me from 3/12 AP 9/12 FP to 5/12 AP 9/12 FP.

Taking another AOD:Double, this time since I remain in close range (since you didn't mention using your free step to move away before or after your kick, I assume you are again retaining it for retreat purposes) I get to retain my free step to use for defenses.

ericthered 02-26-2019 06:51 AM

Re: A Challenger Appears! Green versus Red
 
He will all out defend (dodge) and take one step back.

Plane 02-26-2019 10:49 AM

Re: A Challenger Appears! Green versus Red
 
Rolling to recover AP again due to untriggered defeses. This time the HT roll was a 6, MoS is 5 so I recover 2 AP, bringing me up to 5/12 AP.
It occurs to me that with "Attack" and "AOD" both giving free steps, but defenders being able to get another step of movement (even if they have to pay for it) via a retreat, that someone backing away will always be able to outpace someone unless the attacker is doing something else to get extra movement, such as Committed Attack at -2 to skill (2 steps) or All-Out Attack (1/2 move) or Move and Attack (full)

However in all those cases, there are increased AP costs to keeping pace, whereas the retreater who took a AOD can simply use their free AP to pay for the retreat, so they will always have a net benefit.

It sorta makes me wonder if Cole was right to give out free AP like that to AOD. It already has benefits (bonus or double-opportunity) ... especially in balance with needing to pay extra AP for the opposite (AOA or CA)

If we were using Movement Points (2 steps forward costs as much as 1 step back) it would all be a little more believable :)

I am going to take an Attack maneuver, use my free step to close back into close range with you, and using my right hand, grapple at DX (normally 12, reduced to 11) targetting a random hit location. This reduces my AP from 5/12 to 4/12.

I roll a 7, a successful hit. I roll 9 on RHL (chest) sub-table D is a 5 so it's a normal chest grapple (I assume this means your shirt) ad not vitals... actually come to think of it, I'm not sure what grappling vitals meas or if I could even do that without some special power....

I'm assuming you will use your 2 free AP to do a retreating dodge? please do your defenses.

ericthered 02-27-2019 06:30 AM

Re: A Challenger Appears! Green versus Red
 
I could see charging 2 AP for a retreat after you've burned your step. On the other hand, I think AP costs for movement are already a little high.

You guess correctly. I perform a retreating dodge, and succeed.

He all out defends (dodge) again, saving his step for the retreat.

--------------------------------------------------

The goal of the last gasp is to break combat into "flurries" of blows. To do that you need a situation in which either side can gain an advantage by breaking off the attack. I think that's why AoD feels so strong.

I think grappling the torso counts as grappling the whole body. It could be the shirt, but it could also be the shoulder or the waist.

Plane 03-01-2019 12:38 AM

Re: A Challenger Appears! Green versus Red
 
Defensive Attack: use my free step to get into close range with you again, Feint using a punch from my right arm.

This lowers from 4/12 to 3/12 AP.

Would you like to resist the Feint?
RP-wise since your character wouldn't actually know this is a feint, I guess it would be like "do you defend against it" or something?
The choice to react to or potentially resist and compensate for feints, RP-wise, seem like they might work like dodges.
Since people who AOA can't resist QCs except ST-based ones.

Possible house rules for future battles:
if multiple enemies are all feinting you, perhaps a -1 to successive resistance rolls against feints for each one you need to roll in a second?
That would match up with dodges.
Or maybe it should be -2 since it's not based on halved skill like active defenses usually are....
Or at -4 because it's based on full DX instead of 1/4 DX... which would bring it on par with parries. Too harsh?
This would of course be on top of the basic idea of a cumulative -1 for EVERYTHING.

What is your opinion on whether or not the 2 free AP from AOD might be usable to pay for that? Seems fair to me.

I think 'One Foe' would give you +1 in the contest?

You cannot retreat though, since this is not actually an Active Defense, but rather the use of your own Feint technique (defaulting to your combat skill) to resist a QC.

Regardless of outcome, we will not actually roll to determine any possible penalties to your active defenses until AFTER you have chosen and rolled them. I will apply the penalty retroactively to your roll after all modifiers are added. After all: RP wise you would not actually know whether you saw through the feint ("woo I don't need to use Feverish Defense!") nor would I ("woo I don't need to make a deceptive attack!").

ericthered 03-01-2019 05:28 PM

Re: A Challenger Appears! Green versus Red
 
Gurps feints are weird. On the one hand the combat system gets much much messier if you don't use perfect knowledge. On the other hand a feint really looks like an attack.

As a note we've already run feints the basic way this combat: rolls [64] and [65]

Feints are about manipulating your opponent, and I think they are uniquely ill-suited for penalizing them by making them do multiple things at once. Look at the rules for feinting with Altered Time Rate.

Allowing the feint to cost all out defense AP sounds correct to me. Allowing one foe to give the bonus to feint sounds appropriate, but technically not rules as written.

Not being able to retreat from a feint sounds a touch odd, but its RAW. That might be an interesting option to add.

Plane 03-08-2019 07:24 PM

Re: A Challenger Appears! Green versus Red
 
I never noticed they numbered the roll output logs until now :/

Had actually forgotten about this even though I cited it on page 1...
costs nothing if you win, but costs 1 AP otherwise.

In this case, I think it would be fair to subtract the "1 AP otherwise" on a failure from any remaining of the 2 free AP on an AOD.

Far as I know, quick contests don't have critical successes/failures so the usual 0 cost when you roll 3 or 4 (or MoS of 10+) wouldn't apply? A little unclear there. In this case, it would only apply the to Feinter, if they had a Margin of Victory of 10+, I think?

Automatic 0s on a 3-4 might be okay though, for either party, regardless of who wins the QC.

Whether or not you choose to resist would matter, since RESISTING is what triggers the cost on either a loss or tie (not a win, even though a tie doesn't result in penalties for you).

The question is: at what point should you choose to resist... before or after the Feinter makes their roll?

When we did it, you just went ahead and rolled, so I knew your MoS ahead of time. I might well have just thought "bleh, I can never defeat that MoS, so I should just not resist this and save myself the possible loss of AP".

I didn't do that (I resisted anyway) but I'm wondering if that was the right way to go about. When people can choose options to improve their odds in a contest (say for example, using traditional rules, the "Visualization" advantage) then it should probably matter whether or not we know the outcome when we choose to resist the feint in a QC, or play like an AOA who automatically fails.

Irrelevant jabbering:
The interesting thing about automatic failure is it can't produce a Margin of Failure... so it could be a superior tactic to simply IGNORE feints (absorb the penalties when the roll succeeds) than to resist them (and possibly allow even failures to suceed by having a higher MoF). For that reason I think non-resisting should mean accepting a MoF of 15 (skill 3, take a roll of 18) which in most cases will always penalize your defenses against that attacker.

I would also say that skill 3 is the lowest a 'resist feint' should ever be, similar to how active defenses work. Someone with below skill 3 can't normally make success rolls except for active defenses, but in the case of quick contests it doesn't matter. All it means is that margin of failure should be capped at 15, and margin of success is 0 maximum.

In the case of defensive feints... if you don't even try to pay attention to their feints then it would make sense you'd lose track of them an have trouble hitting them next turn.

I think if I was to houserule some future battle, I'd say Feints and roleplayed as attacks, you force people to announce a parry or dodge against them, but then just say they missed, and then roll the parry or dodge (crit success means attack becomes a crit fail, even if a feint) and apply the MoS or MoF on those active defenses as a modifier to your skill to resist the Feint?
Never mind, I consulted https://books.google.ca/books?id=fWqshwVubfYC&pg=PA179 and realized I was remembering how Feints work wrong. It isn't MoV regardless, the Feint roll MUST succeed and you subbtract the lesser of MoS or MoF, meaning you need to succeed by at least 1 to do anything...

FOLLOWING OUR ORIGINAL FORMAT... I will roll and THEN you choose if you want to resist or not, but it's probably a good idea to avoid the automatic MoF 15 that I'm suggesting above... or do you have some alternate ideas there? I was thinking rather than "take MoF 15" it's just a "take an 18 as your roll, calculate margins normally". So in your case, since you have skill 14, taking an 18 would give an autotic MoF of 4 instead, which seems more realistic and less game-breaking to feint-ignorers.

I rolled a 14,
giving me MoF 1 in respect to skill 13


So I couldn't possibly get a bonus, the feint fails... there's no point in you resisting.

Feints... aren't as good as I thought. In fact since it didn't even cost you any AP, this was like an untriggered wait so you can make your HT roll to try and recover some more AP.

YOUR TURN


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