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-   -   Another Approach to Spell/Talent Cost (http://forums.sjgames.com/showthread.php?t=158536)

David Bofinger 07-17-2018 01:48 AM

Re: Another Approach to Spell/Talent Cost
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by zot (Post 2193065)
You don't want house-ruling XP to be the only practical way to get to play legendary characters. They may be one in a million in the world but you don't want them to be one in a million for players. Otherwise, the stories about playing legendary characters won't come from people who play the game as written.

If I had a vote I would enthusiastically endorse all of this.

GlennDoren 07-17-2018 02:03 AM

Re: Another Approach to Spell/Talent Cost
 
I like this idea a lot. It doesn't set an arbitrary limit--it simply makes "legendary characters" more "expensive". And I like that it allows the system to leverage "talents" as a key differentiator between characters, as opposed to a few attributes. Yes, it will be important to ensure all talents have been properly tested for balance... but that would have been an issue even using the original system.

pyratejohn 07-17-2018 06:07 AM

Re: Another Approach to Spell/Talent Cost
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ak_aramis (Post 2193017)
Already more complex than I care for for what will be a "Pickups and Solos" game for me most of the time.

I may be in agreement with you, though I'm actually using original TFT for a campaign right now.

I'll admit part of what has kept me coming back to play Melee/Wizard/TFT over the years is the simplicity. There are plenty of games out there where character creation takes a long time, even whole sessions, but very few where I can make a character up in my head in as long as it takes me to pick 8 or maybe 10 talents that each cost from between 1 and 3 points.

larsdangly 07-17-2018 08:44 AM

Re: Another Approach to Spell/Talent Cost
 
I am not sure how other people think about 'legendary' characters, but I suspect they mean something I don't agree needs to be facilitated in TFT, which has always been a game built for, and best at, relatively closely-matched contests between combatants who fall within a certain range in power.

When you pull back and look at the full sweep of discussion on this forum, you can see a sort of schizophrenic conflict in our collective thinking: On one hand, many people recognize that the game isn't very fun once 'attribute bloat' sets in (I don't agree, but only because in my experience characters are always dead before that happens...), and on the other hand they want to have characters be exceptionally powerful, 'maxed out' or 'legendary' in their abilities. Presumably that means they have only modest chances of getting murdered on adventures, and they grow into stat levels and/or talents that blow everyone else's doors off.

We can't have it both ways, and Steve has to make a choice between these things. Personally, I already have about 873 published roleplaying games on my shelves in which player characters are functionally immortal super heroes, and I don't need another one. My preference is that TFT remains the game where player character legends are about that cool fight where they got killed.

Rick_Smith 07-17-2018 10:02 AM

Is the elder game schizophrenic?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by larsdangly (Post 2193158)
...
When you pull back and look at the full sweep of discussion on this forum, you can see a sort of schizophrenic conflict in our collective thinking: On one hand, many people recognize that the game isn't very fun once 'attribute bloat' sets in (I don't agree, but only because in my experienced characters are always dead before that happens...), and on the other hand they want to have characters be exceptionally powerful, 'maxed out' or 'legendary' in their abilities. ...

Hi larsdangly,
I obviously disagree with this. At one time I was known as a killer GM where people died a LOT. I've got bored with low level characters and my style is that the adventures are more survivable, if people take care.

Also, not counting arena battles where I'm teaching a new player the combat rules, it has been YEARS since I've had an arena fight. My focus is exclusively on long running, complicated, involved campaigns – ones with lots of politics, puzzles, and subtle threats.

Consider that people who like the elder game with advanced characters are hardly schizophrenic if they want the game to play well WITH experienced characters. Such GM's and players will have experienced attribute bloat, and have every right to be concerned about it.

Speaking personally, my goals for the new TFT are quite straightforward. What I have campaigned for most strongly is a modest increase in memory, so that people can have a bandit leader who is ALSO a ranger, or a pirate who is ALSO a thief. I've also asked for cool talents for elder characters, and suggested very modest solutions to attribute bloat. (Steve's solution is FAR larger than anything I suggested.)

These goals, far from being schizophrenic, seem to me to be... logical and tightly focused.

Finally, if Steve fixes the elder game, there is little that will effect the play of low level characters. (Are there any changes that will adversely effect low level characters which concern you?) I confess concern over the powerful talents that Steve has suggested (they have lots of sub abilities which all have to work and be balanced rather than several simpler talents). But they seem to becoming much more balanced.

Warm regards, Rick.

zot 07-17-2018 03:25 PM

Re: Is the elder game schizophrenic?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick_Smith (Post 2193185)
Finally, if Steve fixes the elder game, there is little that will effect the play of low level characters. (Are there any changes that will adversely effect low level characters which concern you?) I confess concern over the powerful talents that Steve has suggested (they have lots of sub abilities which all have to work and be balanced rather than several simpler talents). But they seem to becoming much more balanced.

Yeah, we just had a TPK when the one melee fighter in this group of 3 36-point characters changed from original ITL UC V + your HTH rules and Judo changed to the most recent version of UC V + your HTH rules and Judo. We are going with these limitations as-written:
  • Fist damage is 1d - 4, no scaling with ST
  • -2 DX adjustment and blocking 3 hits does not work against ranged weapons

Nerve strikes have not come into play yet (against ST 20 terror birds) but it seems like you could declare a nerve strike for one or both of the two punches you can do if you choose to do slightly less damage.

Melichor 07-17-2018 03:37 PM

Re: Is the elder game schizophrenic?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by zot (Post 2193313)
Yeah, we just had a TPK when the one melee fighter in this group of 3 36-point characters changed from original ITL UC V

How can a 36 point character have UC V?

zot 07-17-2018 03:39 PM

Re: Is the elder game schizophrenic?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Melichor (Post 2193320)
How can a 36 point character have UC V?

Here are the current UC rules

Melichor 07-17-2018 04:30 PM

Re: Another Approach to Spell/Talent Cost
 
I've been reading that thread.

However, you said
Quote:

original ITL UC V
That is what I was questioning.

zot 07-17-2018 04:39 PM

Re: Another Approach to Spell/Talent Cost
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Melichor (Post 2193363)
I've been reading that thread.

However, you said
That is what I was questioning.

Besides Rick Smith's HTH and Judo house rules, we're using other ones, including adjusted IQ levels for the UC talents.


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