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-   -   Can a Destiean Sabotage someones future to avert their fate? (http://forums.sjgames.com/showthread.php?t=157882)

PenitentDemon 06-12-2018 12:01 PM

Can a Destiean Sabotage someones future to avert their fate?
 
is it reasonable for a destinean to sabotage someones future to avert their fate?

if their fate is something that needs an education but their destiny isnt to sabotage them in college is that reasonable?

thought it could be potent.

wondered if helping with that kind of thing would satisfy a renegade shedites dissonance condition.

William 06-12-2018 12:20 PM

Re: Can a Destiean Sabotage someones future to avert their fate?
 
Short answer: yes.

Longer: It's rare that a Destiny angel might be having to do something so apparently counterproductive in the short term, but it's plausible and could make a decent adventure.

Elaborate answer: If someone's Fate almost certainly requires a college education but their Destiny almost certainly doesn't, then it's likely that there's some alternative experience that would be better for them than college anyway. A Destiny angel who wants what's best for the person and the Symphony can probably find a way to make college alternatives palatable -- there's probably a part of the college student that wishes there were somewhere else doing something else anyway. Ideally the Destiny angel will find something Destiny-oriented that the human wants to do. You can almost never force a human into their Destiny. But that might not be apparent for a while, and struggling with short-term pain for long-term benefit is certainly a common feature of Destiny missions.

Shedim are almost the exact opposite. They have to corrupt; they have to contest wills with their hosts, so they never cause the human to do something they want to do. Usually the type of corruption they embrace is defined by their Word; Infernal Words are Fate-tending, but theoretically what the Shedite is doing doesn't have to be tugging someone toward Fate.

In your example, a Renegade Shedite could indeed slowly "corrupt" a dutiful college student into skipping class to go skateboard when their Destiny was indeed "become a pro skateboarder." Being a Shedite, though, they're going to have a hard time stopping there, having to continue contesting Wills with the person until he's a meth-head sleeping under a bridge and getting his kicks from the knockout game and his money from purse-snatching who barely remembers that he was out here because he liked boarding... but a "good," Redemption-tending Shedite might manage the trick and move on quickly.

tanksoldier 06-12-2018 02:49 PM

Re: Can a Destiean Sabotage someones future to avert their fate?
 
Could they lead someone towards their Fate to allow a greater number to achieve their Destiny?

Could they try to ensure an obscure German Corporal is killed rather than survives WWI?

William 06-12-2018 06:34 PM

Re: Can a Destiean Sabotage someones future to avert their fate?
 
Leading someone to their Fate will never help others achieve their Destiny. By definition, Fates damage the Symphony more than they help it.

Seeing that someone with an enormously powerful Fate and minor Destiny is killed before they can achieve the former is a highly dubious proposition. In most playings of the game, Heaven simply doesn't go around assassinating humans unless they have knowingly aligned themselves with Hell or have already performed acts which justify an execution. Pre-emptive killings open up terrible ethical problems.

The exception is a Dark and/or Backwards game. In the former case Heaven does all sorts of vicious and morally dubious things in a desperate struggle to save what they can; in the latter case Heaven is the real villain and feels that anything they want to do can be justified by appealing to Destiny.

tanksoldier 06-13-2018 10:48 PM

Re: Can a Destiean Sabotage someones future to avert their fate?
 
Quote:

. Heaven simply doesn't go around assassinating humans unless they have knowingly aligned themselves with Hell
Outright assasination, sure... maybe.

...but that German Corporal was wounded twice and decorated for bravery several times (he really was) so just nudging one of those incidents a bit might generate a positive outcome.

...or maybe becoming Leader of the Reich was actually his Fate, and his Destiny was to become a great painter?

William 06-14-2018 09:26 AM

Re: Can a Destiean Sabotage someones future to avert their fate?
 
That was his Fate and Destiny, IIRC. Encouraging him to take medical retirement after one of those woundings and follow his artistic ambitions would have been the course a Shepherd would likely have tried -- if they ever spotted him before he was a well-known politician with a Hellish bodyguard.

PenitentDemon 06-14-2018 01:52 PM

Re: Can a Destiean Sabotage someones future to avert their fate?
 
oh was King Mannaseh from the bible a good example of someone who met their fate and destiny?

Whitelaughter 06-14-2018 08:57 PM

Re: Can a Destiean Sabotage someones future to avert their fate?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by William (Post 2182424)
Leading someone to their Fate will never help others achieve their Destiny. By definition, Fates damage the Symphony more than they help it.

On the contrary, look at Yves' opinion of Malphas (S3, p117) "He does Heaven's work without knowing it. For every soul he snares, another ten see the lie and strive for the light."

The self-destructive nature of evil is given. That said, any angel of Destiny attempting to do this is going to Fall, as the dissonance gained from destroying people will not be removed by the salvation of others.

PenitentDemon 06-15-2018 09:26 AM

Re: Can a Destiean Sabotage someones future to avert their fate?
 
Their is the Angel of Wind in Service to Yves in the book of Servitors, for the cases where you have to knowingly risk fate, in order to salvage some chance of destiny.

if both destiny and fate alike require they go to college (or didnt), for example.


in first case try to make sure they have friends through their college years

if his destinys to become a doctor who saves lives

but his fate is to create biological weapons

it will be tricky.

both require knowledge of medicine.

chaotic-nipple 07-09-2018 08:25 PM

Re: Can a Destiean Sabotage someones future to avert their fate?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by William (Post 2182424)
Leading someone to their Fate will never help others achieve their Destiny. By definition, Fates damage the Symphony more than they help it.

I'm not so sure of that. Could David Ben-Gurian have ever found his Destiny, if Adolf Hitler hadn't succumbed to his fate?


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