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-   -   Using an Illusion's Senses (http://forums.sjgames.com/showthread.php?t=164449)

Tywyll 07-08-2019 03:08 AM

Using an Illusion's Senses
 
So you can use your illusion's senses to detect things you can't sense.

What if the illusion has senses you don't? Can you benefit from those? Like a bat's sonar, a cat's low-light vision, a wolf's sense of smell? If you had a race with 'dark vision' could you use it to see in the dark?

MikMod 07-08-2019 03:43 AM

Re: Using an Illusion's Senses
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Tywyll (Post 2272873)
So you can use your illusion's senses to detect things you can't sense.

What if the illusion has senses you don't? Can you benefit from those? Like a bat's sonar, a cat's low-light vision, a wolf's sense of smell? If you had a race with 'dark vision' could you use it to see in the dark?

Can you?

If you could 'see in the dark' then you would see what you thought was there, not what was really there. It gets weird.

zot 07-08-2019 04:17 AM

Re: Using an Illusion's Senses
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Tywyll (Post 2272873)
So you can use your illusion's senses to detect things you can't sense.

What if the illusion has senses you don't? Can you benefit from those? Like a bat's sonar, a cat's low-light vision, a wolf's sense of smell? If you had a race with 'dark vision' could you use it to see in the dark?

SJ addressed this here, but about summoned creatures, not illusions: "Tentatively: Its other senses are also available, though the wizard will not understand everything that a rat smells or a bat hears!"

My take would be "yes".

Mosquito images are favorites for spying, btw -- they're great for going under doors and through keyholes.

Tywyll 07-08-2019 05:16 AM

Re: Using an Illusion's Senses
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by MikMod (Post 2272876)
Can you?

If you could 'see in the dark' then you would see what you thought was there, not what was really there. It gets weird.

Hummm...I could have sworn that you could, but now that I'm trying to hunt it down, I can't find it (nor can I find the rules about summoned creatures and their senses...).

zot 07-08-2019 06:33 AM

Re: Using an Illusion's Senses
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Tywyll (Post 2272884)
Hummm...I could have sworn that you could, but now that I'm trying to hunt it down, I can't find it (nor can I find the rules about summoned creatures and their senses...).

ITL p137, "A wizard can see through the eyes of the summoned beings, images, or illusions brought by his Creation spells. If he has Mage Sight, his creations have it too."

MikMod 07-08-2019 07:52 AM

Re: Using an Illusion's Senses
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by zot (Post 2272889)
ITL p137, "A wizard can see through the eyes of the summoned beings, images, or illusions brought by his Creation spells. If he has Mage Sight, his creations have it too."

And he can see things he doesn't know about? New information can be gained using a pair of illusory eyes? I thought you couldn't do that. After all, the new Scout spell would be completely pointless, you'd just run up an image every time, with no 'mammal only' restrictions...

zot 07-08-2019 09:01 AM

Re: Using an Illusion's Senses
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by MikMod (Post 2272896)
And he can see things he doesn't know about? New information can be gained using a pair of illusory eyes? I thought you couldn't do that. After all, the new Scout spell would be completely pointless, you'd just run up an image every time, with no 'mammal only' restrictions...

Yes, illusions are just like any other creations in that respect (these rules were even in the original game), ITL p139 even mentions how illusions make useful scouts. Scout, on the other hand, is an actual physical creature so it can trigger traps and it's just as cheap as Image is (just not mosquito-sized). p139 has other useful info, btw -- well worth the read.

zot 07-08-2019 09:21 AM

Re: Using an Illusion's Senses
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by MikMod (Post 2272896)
And he can see things he doesn't know about? New information can be gained using a pair of illusory eyes? I thought you couldn't do that. After all, the new Scout spell would be completely pointless, you'd just run up an image every time, with no 'mammal only' restrictions...

Illusions aren't simple figments of the imagination, they're objectively real in certain respects; ITL p138 describes illusions as being made up of a "knot of forces".

For instance, if an illusion moves, everyone looking will see it move in the same way -- it's not subjective. The viewers all see the same thing -- an illusion of a wolf appears as a wolf to all of the viewers. If the caster specifies that it's a purple wolf, everyone will see a purple wolf (and then, if they saw it appear, they will all get a chance to disbelieve it). There's nothing in the text to imply that they don't all see the exact same wolf, nothing implies there's any subjectivity at all, except in the case of extraordinary things the illusion might do (like if it's an illusion of a famous hero).

Illusions are also not "mass hypnosis" in the sense that you aren't casting a spell on each of the viewers -- it doesn't matter how far away they are. People newly entering the scene will see an existing illusion even though they weren't present for the casting. Someone far away looking through a telescope would see the illusion (and have a chance to disbelieve it).

Also, p139 says that illusions of fire, wall, shadow, handheld weapons, and rope "behave like the real thing". I.e. an illusion of fire can actually burn your clothing. An illusionary knife can cut through a rope. The text says these kinds of illusion have somehow acquired extra power.

zot 07-08-2019 09:26 AM

Re: Using an Illusion's Senses
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by zot (Post 2272914)
Also, p139 says that illusions of fire, wall, shadow, handheld weapons, and rope "behave like the real thing". I.e. an illusion of fire can actually burn your clothing. An illusionary knife can cut through a rope. The text says these kinds of illusion have somehow acquired extra power.

Note that this also means an illusionary wall can actually support and protect from physical things.

Walls are as expensive or more expensive than illusions, btw, so why anyone would learn and use them instead of illusions is beyond me. Who disbelieves a wall?

xane 07-08-2019 10:46 AM

Re: Using an Illusion's Senses
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by zot (Post 2272914)
Ian illusion of fire can actually burn your clothing. An illusionary knife can cut through a rope. The text says these kinds of illusion have somehow acquired extra power.

RAW Page 139 says "An illusion cannot affect any inanimate object".


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