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-   -   Do the Archery rules cover this? (http://forums.sjgames.com/showthread.php?t=100712)

Jürgen Hubert 11-30-2012 12:00 AM

Do the Archery rules cover this?
 
Take a look at this video.

While "Multiple Fast-Draw" from p. 103 in GURPS Martial Arts covers the act of drawing multiple arrows, I couldn't find anything about holding the excess arrows in the hand you are shooting with.

Dustin 11-30-2012 12:24 AM

Re: Do the Archery rules cover this?
 
I don't think existing rules cover this - GURPS rules all seem to assume that the archer is performing a full draw, maximum power shot. The highly skilled fellow in this video is (in my opinion) mostly trading power for speed, using partial draws and an intriguing, but awkward arrow-readying technique that I think would compromise his hand's ability to pull a 100-lb+ warbow.

Together, I might stat it as a Technique that reduces the penalty for Rapid Strike but penalizes effective ST while doing so.

Polydamas 11-30-2012 12:38 AM

Re: Do the Archery rules cover this?
 
I would just give a Fast-Draw bonus for arrows held in the hand. A half draw would give a big bonus to Fast-Draw (Arrow) but half ST.

Not all bows used in war had high (>100 lb) draw weights. The proof of the pudding will be if someone can reproduce those with moderate (50-100 lb) draw weight bows and get useful penetration. The last slide says that the bows have a 30-35 lb draw, and I hope that is at the short distance he draws to rather than full extension.

I think he needs to get a refund from whoever imported that Indian maille :)

Polydamas 11-30-2012 12:49 AM

Re: Do the Archery rules cover this?
 
I also think that you can maintain a rate of fire of two arrows a second in GURPS with Dual-Weapon Attack (Bow) and Quick-Shooting Bows from MA p. 119, 120. Its a loose interpretation of DWA (Bow) but the effect is what matters. The trick is to stat the bonuses from carrying arrows in hand, using a short draw, and so on that let someone with a plausible skill do this outside of combat.

vierasmarius 11-30-2012 01:46 AM

Re: Do the Archery rules cover this?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Polydamas (Post 1484153)
I would just give a Fast-Draw bonus for arrows held in the hand. A half draw would give a big bonus to Fast-Draw (Arrow) but half ST.

I'd let a half-draw offset some of the -6 penalty for Quick-Shooting Bows. As a technique, -2 damage (or -1 per die) would give a +4. As a Hard technique, you could raise it to full skill for [3], or [4] if you require an Unusual Training perk. As mentioned under Quick-Shooting, in a realistic setting this could be at an additional -4 if attempted in combat.

Fast Draw is a separate issue, IMO. The fact that he's holding the arrows in-hand (presumably getting a bonus to Fast Draw but a penalty to Bow) hints at where his expertise may lie.

B9anders 11-30-2012 04:32 AM

Re: Do the Archery rules cover this?
 
I'd simply treat it as a bonus to fast-draw, using similar rules as in Martial Arts about fast-drawing weapons from different places and positions.

or alternatively, good use of the quick-swap perk.

Polydamas 11-30-2012 09:27 AM

Re: Do the Archery rules cover this?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by vierasmarius (Post 1484179)
I'd let a half-draw offset some of the -6 penalty for Quick-Shooting Bows. As a technique, -2 damage (or -1 per die) would give a +4. As a Hard technique, you could raise it to full skill for [3], or [4] if you require an Unusual Training perk. As mentioned under Quick-Shooting, in a realistic setting this could be at an additional -4 if attempted in combat.

Fast Draw is a separate issue, IMO. The fact that he's holding the arrows in-hand (presumably getting a bonus to Fast Draw but a penalty to Bow) hints at where his expertise may lie.

The interesting thing here is that GURPS makes it more a feat of Bow than Fast-Draw (Arrow). Drawing two arrows with one hand in a second is two rolls at +0 and -2, and having the arrows in hand must give at least +2, in addition to a large out-of-combat bonus. Quick-Shooting Bows with a Dual-Weapon Attack requires three Bow rolls at -6, -10, and -10 with a significant size and range/speed penalty (even 10 yards is -4), a multitasking penalty for holding the bow and spare arrows at the same time, and a large out-of-combat bonus.

I agree that this could be turned into some techniques. It might make a good Pyramid article ...

Jürgen Hubert 12-01-2012 03:31 AM

Re: Do the Archery rules cover this?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Polydamas (Post 1484292)
I agree that this could be turned into some techniques. It might make a good Pyramid article ...

Indeed. I stumbled across this video on RPGNet, where the original poster claimed that no RPG system covered this technique. To my chagrin, I discovered he was right about GURPS.

I am also interested in the alleged historical uses of this technique.

Mr Frost 12-01-2012 05:01 AM

Re: Do the Archery rules cover this?
 
I'm inclined to call fraud on many of the claims in the video .



To begin with , the quality of both the mail and warhead is not only unmentioned but unverifiable too .
The mail could have been made of plastic for all we know and palming something as small as that busted link He showed {which burst on the wire its' self , not the rivet which is highly suspect to my mind} is pretty easy to learn .
Also , the maile is without padding and laid flat on a rigid surface {which for penetration is cheating shamefully !} .

Not to mention , the video shows a pyramidal shaped bodkin and claims it was for armour piercing when from what I have read , all the examples found of such heads were too soft for such and would have been for flight arrows instead .


Second , there is no way He is pulling any useful draw weight with many of the arm positions He uses .
The Human body is a machine and there are limits to what it can do in what fashion . He is using a very weak grip on the string/arrow and is pushing the bow forward using what would be a very weak jab in boxing .
Regardless of how much strength work He might have done , that bow would have to be pretty anemic .
It would have been worthless in battle unless the enemy were unarmed rabbits .


Third , I would like to know where it is recorded when Saracen archers were tested and had to be able to shoot 3 arrows in 1.5 seconds .
I would also like to know when Medieval Arabs started measuring passages of time in fractions of a second .

If the time span was a heartbeat , the ability to stop ones own heart beat is fairly common and is taught to high level competition shooters and so easy to learn I taught Myself to do it as a teenager {it sounded like a cool thing to try at the time} .

It is quite plausible that a shooter might be encouraged to master the ability to shoot between heartbeats {the pulse of blood through the body can disturb aim} and being able to hold off the next beat for three shots might have been something of a self measured standard {or more likely some sort of poetic expression which is common in Medieval Arabic} , though I have never heard of it before .
It is possible to hold of the hearts' next beat for more than 1.5 seconds with practice .


Finally , the whole video just plain sets off My B.S. detector .




Edit : I mean no slight on you Jurgen , the harshness is directed at the people in the video .

This video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2yorHswhzrU seems more realistic to Me , but also illustrates your question {how can this be modeled in G.U.R.P.S} .

Peter V. Dell'Orto 12-01-2012 05:26 AM

Re: Do the Archery rules cover this?
 
I watched a little of the video - it's kind of long and blurry so I just hunted down the part where I can see him holding the extra arrows.

The "holding the extra arrows in the hand" bit isn't speeding him up vs. successful Fast Draw rolls that I could see. I can't imagine those arrows make for an easier draw or maximize your ability to use a bow in combat. I'd apply a -2 for each extra arrow in your hand to your bow skill, halved for Weapon Master (Bow) or Heroic Archer or both to -1. That way you can get rid of the Fast Draw rolls if you want but suffer a bit in the shooting.


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