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-   -   High Amounts of non penetrating damage. Bullets VS Plate Carriers (http://forums.sjgames.com/showthread.php?t=149895)

mushroom911 05-06-2017 10:04 AM

High Amounts of non penetrating damage. Bullets VS Plate Carriers
 
So, mostly playing westerns, medieval fantasy and some ww2, there haven't really been many cases of someone absorbing a 20pt blow with his dr.

What would happen if someone absorbs 28-30 points of damage with his plate carrier? I imagine that would hurt a lot, all footage I've seen where someone shoots a plate carrier with something like 7.62 API it looks like you would break a rib or two. Especially for ceramic inserts. I imagined something like 1dmg/5 dmg stopped sorta like flexible armor vs maces.

I was pretty sure I had seen some mention of this in one of the books but I can't seem to find it, the only thing I can find is the flexible armor rule.


What I'm trying to say is: Is there any rule that dictates if and how much damage you take from stopping a bullet dealing around 30 dmg with your dr 30-35 body armor?

Rasna 05-06-2017 10:40 AM

Re: High Amounts of non penetrating damage. Bullets VS Plate Carriers
 
Using blunt trauma rules, if the bullet fails to penetrate flexible armor, it deals 1 point of blunt trauma injury every 10 points of piercing damage (also applies to cutting and impaling damage). So, a 30 damage hit would inflict 3 points of damage because the blunt trauma.

Ulzgoroth 05-06-2017 12:01 PM

Re: High Amounts of non penetrating damage. Bullets VS Plate Carriers
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Rasna (Post 2097018)
Using blunt trauma rules, if the bullet fails to penetrate flexible armor, it deals 1 point of blunt trauma injury every 10 points of piercing damage (also applies to cutting and impaling damage). So, a 30 damage hit would inflict 3 points of damage because the blunt trauma.

Plate carriers aren't flexible armor, though. There is no blunt trauma through non-flexible armor, and trauma plates aren't flexible.

You might make a house-rule that trauma plates (and similar small rigid plates) count as flexible for blunt trauma purposes if worn without sufficient backing material...

Rasna 05-06-2017 12:07 PM

Re: High Amounts of non penetrating damage. Bullets VS Plate Carriers
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth (Post 2097036)
You might make a house-rule that trauma plates (and similar small rigid plates) count as flexible for blunt trauma purposes if worn without sufficient backing material...

Sounds good.

apoc527 05-06-2017 12:13 PM

Re: High Amounts of non penetrating damage. Bullets VS Plate Carriers
 
If it's rigid armor (like plates), then you take no damage.

mushroom911 05-06-2017 12:56 PM

Re: High Amounts of non penetrating damage. Bullets VS Plate Carriers
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth (Post 2097036)
You might make a house-rule that trauma plates (and similar small rigid plates) count as flexible for blunt trauma purposes if worn without sufficient backing material...


Yeah, I'm thinking that might be the optimal solution.

I know that non penetrating heavy attacks are often enough to push people over (heavy cutting/cr strikes) and that has occured a few times during campaigns.
I just somehow thought the blunt trauma rule applied to ballistic plates for whatever reason, it just seemed to make sense to me.

House rule it is.

Ulzgoroth 05-06-2017 01:29 PM

Re: High Amounts of non penetrating damage. Bullets VS Plate Carriers
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by mushroom911 (Post 2097052)
I just somehow thought the blunt trauma rule applied to ballistic plates for whatever reason, it just seemed to make sense to me.

There is a little supplemental rule in Pyramid 3-57 p13 about fragmentation damage from shards of trauma plate. Easily blocked by a ballistic carrier or ballistic backing inserts in a non-ballistic carrier, but if you're duct-taping them to a T-shirt or something you could get hurt.

Curmudgeon 05-06-2017 06:44 PM

Re: High Amounts of non penetrating damage. Bullets VS Plate Carriers
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by mushroom911 (Post 2097013)
So, mostly playing westerns, medieval fantasy and some ww2, there haven't really been many cases of someone absorbing a 20pt blow with his dr.

What would happen if someone absorbs 28-30 points of damage with his plate carrier? I imagine that would hurt a lot, all footage I've seen where someone shoots a plate carrier with something like 7.62 API it looks like you would break a rib or two. Especially for ceramic inserts. I imagined something like 1dmg/5 dmg stopped sorta like flexible armor vs maces.

I was pretty sure I had seen some mention of this in one of the books but I can't seem to find it, the only thing I can find is the flexible armor rule.


What I'm trying to say is: Is there any rule that dictates if and how much damage you take from stopping a bullet dealing around 30 dmg with your dr 30-35 body armor?

Two rules in combo, actually.

First from p. B286, Combining and Layering Armor: "... but you can only layer armor if the inner layer is both flexible and concealable. Add the DR of both layers."

Second from B379, Flexible Armor and Blunt Trauma: "If you layer other DR over flexible DR, only damage that penetrates the outer layer can inflict blunt trauma."

Neither the Frag Vest or the Tactical Vest from p. B284 are concealable, but I would argue that either should count as layered with their plates for purposes of applying DR. The only limitation is that you can't conceal the fact that you're wearing layered armor (which otherwise doesn't seem to be defined in the Basic Set).

While it's true that the individual plates are rigid, it's also true that they fit into pockets/pouches and there are gaps in coverage between them, so overall any individual plate still has some give relative to the vest as a whole, so it should still count as being somewhat flexible armor.

Anthony 05-06-2017 07:51 PM

Re: High Amounts of non penetrating damage. Bullets VS Plate Carriers
 
Realistically, a plate that doesn't fail isn't going to result in meaningful GURPS damage when struck by a bullet; somewhere under 1% of the bullet's energy actually goes into kinetic energy of the plate.

Tomsdad 05-07-2017 05:16 AM

Re: High Amounts of non penetrating damage. Bullets VS Plate Carriers
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Anthony (Post 2097115)
Realistically, a plate that doesn't fail isn't going to result in meaningful GURPS damage when struck by a bullet; somewhere under 1% of the bullet's energy actually goes into kinetic energy of the plate.


Actually it is being reported as a problem


However, it is now
emerging as a significant military problem,
particularly behind rigid armour plates
designed to defeat high energy bullets


PDF warning here's a link to a web page


I think the issue is while a plate is clearly rigid armour (both in RL and in GURPS terms). When it's in a plate carrier or part of vest it is still able to be pushed against teh body, unlike say a shaped piece of rigid armour that the body is within (like a clamshell or cuirass).

However I would say what's behind the plate is going to key in determining this effect.

I think I'd go with Ulzgoroth's idea. Possibly even going so far as to give such backing a separate DR vs. cr. But the reality is your only going to facing 1-3 points of Cr damage (well depending on TL)


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